Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 26, 2019 13:55:41 GMT -8
I just read that: Johnson & Johnson fueled opioid crisis in Oklahoma and must pay $572 million, judge rulesI'm somewhat divided on this (not least because there's not way I have enough information on this). To me, it's not exactly news that painkillers can become addictive. It sounds as if they're trying to blame J&J for what is ultimately the responsibility of patients and doctors. Obviously these drugs have benefits (or they wouldn't be so widespread). But they just as obviously need to be used responsibly. How much of a warning do doctors and patients need? The claim is they didn't get enough from J&J. But, come on. Painkillers. Opium (sorry, "opioid"). Should this really be a surprise to anyone? I can't imagine there weren't some disclaimers by J&J for the use of opioids. Perhaps they need a warning like: "People faking injuries in order to get high shouldn't use drugs meant for real medical treatment." Or something like that. |
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Post by timothylane on Aug 26, 2019 14:13:47 GMT -8
There have been accusations of drug companies in essence bribing doctors to use them excessively. I don't know if this has been established in Oklahoma, but it would be a good reason for blaming a drug company.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 26, 2019 14:56:26 GMT -8
I have had a look at the drugs which have to do with the J & J case. They are Duragesic and Nucynta. The second is apparently between tramadol and demerol in strength, both of which I have found useless as regards relieving pain. But morphine also doesn't work on me so who am I to complain.
On the other hand Duragesic contains fentanyl which is a deadly drug 100 x more powerful than morphine. Some of it's newer offspring are 10,000 x more powerful than morphine. I do understand why such a drug is available in the USA. It is simply an overdose waiting to happen.
I looked at a chart on deaths by overdose in the USA and something happened starting in 2013 and 2014 which caused the number of such deaths to spike dramatically. And that something has to do with heroin and fentanyl.
I don't know about the legal aspects of the case against J&J, but I think fentanyl should be removed from the market. If fools, like Prince, want to by it illegally and use it to get high and kill themselves that is one thing. But we should not introduce such a drug to unsuspecting patients who are, apparently, easily hooked on the drug. Once that happens, they will get it any way they can. Better keep them from using it in the first place.
Even I, on whom opioids do not have much effect, would be very leery of using fentanyl, regardless of the amount of pain I had.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 26, 2019 19:39:57 GMT -8
Okay. Thanks for the info, Mr. Kung. I admit that I don't understand this subject very well. What I do know is that there are a lot of people taking recreational drugs. I don't know how much is J&J's fault and how much of this is just abuse of drugs by those who have "back problems."
Here's a pain killer that might work for you, Mr. Kung:
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 26, 2019 19:46:40 GMT -8
Funny you should mention that. Only a couple of days back I was talking to someone about the only time in my life that I was in so much pain that I, literally, would not have complained if someone shot me. I think the hammer would have a similar effect. If someone had offered me fentanyl at that moment, I would have taken it that one time.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 26, 2019 20:10:18 GMT -8
Laura Ingraham had a discussion of fentanyl on her FNC show tonight. She noted that it was 50 times as potent as heroin, that use has recently greatly increased -- along with overdoses. Most of it is produced in China, some imported legally and some sent to Mexico and smuggled across the border.
I remember the single greatest moment of pain I ever had, which came after probably the stupidest thing I ever did -- picking up a live soldering iron at the business end. What made this so stupid was that there was no reason to pick it up at all. It hurt too much to scream. (I dealt with the burns by running cold tap water over them, a first aid tip I encountered in Michael Kurland's A Plague of Spies and have had at least two occasions to use -- the other time for my mother, after she put a candle in a plastic jack o'lantern one Halloween and discovered it was flammable.)
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 26, 2019 20:19:16 GMT -8
I heard this as well, which I find very interesting as I know that China controls the production of opioids very strictly. I know because I have a friend in the medical industry who negotiated the opening of a new factory to produce opioids in China some 25 years ago. It was extremely difficult to get Chinese permission due to their sensitivity to drug addiction which is a result of the very large opium addiction which ravaged China in the second half of the 19th and early 20th centuries. The Chinese believe this mass addiction problem contributed to the humiliation of China by Japan and the Western powers.
Maybe they are trying to take a leaf out of their history and apply it to the USA.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 26, 2019 20:23:04 GMT -8
Very odd. But sometimes people are momentarily possessed to do crazy things.
My pain was not caused by anything I did, rather it was a stone.
I also use that cold water cure. And if the water is not just about freezing (which is Texas is most of the time), I use ice cubes. I believe this keeps the flesh from continuing to cook like a steak does after you pull it off the grill. In any case, it works wonderfully if the cooked skin area is not too large to cover with ice.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 26, 2019 20:50:15 GMT -8
The purpose of the cold water treatment, according to Kurland, is to prevent blisters from forming. (It's used in the novel after hero Peter Carthage tosses a gas grenade out the window, their foe being quick to act. He was based on Fu Manchu.) It seems to work with ordinary cool tap water, but of course a lot depends on how bad the burn is.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 27, 2019 7:50:48 GMT -8
Then let me amend your prescribed treatment:
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 27, 2019 8:31:59 GMT -8
LOL.
I just realized that Yosemite Sam was Wiley Coyote before there was Wiley and the Roadrunner.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 27, 2019 9:29:59 GMT -8
You could say the same of Elmer Fudd, always trying to hunt Bugs Bunny and never bagging him.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 27, 2019 10:01:38 GMT -8
What I think is obvious is that there has been enormous pressure put on doctors by patients to relieve all pain. But you can’t blame people for their own choices, therefore they must be victims and the fault lies with the evil drug companies.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 27, 2019 13:54:39 GMT -8
Here is another piece on the subject.
Sounds like they are trying to get out front of this trend.
Pill-pushers have done their fair-share of harm throughout history. But there is no doubt that the evil drug companies have been and still are are one of the biggest boons ever to mankind. The problem they have is that the good they do is too often not seen, but the harm is very public. For example, I have no doubt that I would be dead without modern pharmaceuticals, but nobody notices that. If I took an overdose of oxycontin it would be noticed by plenty of people.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 27, 2019 14:18:46 GMT -8
Oh, I noticed.  |
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 27, 2019 14:27:10 GMT -8
I wonder if this commenter to that article has a point:
One commenter (he does sound sensible) who claims to be a doctor writes:
My unknown-to-me twin brother wrote:
God bless you, Mr. Sensible Man. In response to him, on fellow writes:
Could this be true? Is this just some sinister master back-boardroom plan to hook people? As Mr. Kung has noted before about Britain and China, not only was a company devoted to this cause by a country’s government was. So it’s not implausible.
Still, I smell a rat. I think this Snowflake generation was expecting doctors to relieve all pain. And I think it got around that these drugs were a legal way to get high. Lots of shady doctors. Lots of dishonest patients. And a drug company who provides a very useful drug for specific situations that is a godsend for some.
I just can’t get all upset about J&J.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 27, 2019 14:41:02 GMT -8
I mentioned that claim of drug companies bribing earlier in this thread, and that's the best argument in favor of punishing them -- if it's true.
As for KFZ's point about where he'd be without modern drugs, I noticed much the same thing 7 years ago, after extreme diuresis (Lasix) was used to squeeze 25 liters out of me in a week and a half. I commented at a convention we attended a month later that if this hadn't happened, I might no longer be alive by then. The diuretics continued to used until I went into a nursing home in mid-2017.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 27, 2019 14:53:02 GMT -8
LOL! Twice in one day.
I tend to agree with you. People often try to cheat other people. There is nothing new here.
The Romans had a phrase for it Caveat Emptor -Buyer beware. One of the things I learned over the years in business is that it is easy to find intelligent traders, and it is easy to find honest traders, but it is difficult to find intelligent honest traders. Over the years I have amended that phrase by substituting "people" for "traders." And as an aside, this is one reason the government did not allow drug companies to advertise prescription drugs. I believe it would be a good thing if they would ban such ads again. What the hell does some schmuck watching "Modern Family" know about a drug just because he saw it on TV?
This is the way of the world and it is not going to change. Too many make a choice without giving it a second's consideration. Everyone knows this, but most seem to forget this most of the time. I would not doubt that pharmaceutical companies give doctors some type of incentive to push a particular drug. This is not new. If the drug is as useful as another and the prices similar, this is not so important.
Given the FDA's control of the sale of drugs in this country, why did they allow the sale of these dangerous drugs? Did the FDA believe the drugs had positive effects for people if used properly? Then if the drug companies and doctors told people how to use the drugs properly, how are they responsible for the misuse of such drugs? Misuse of a narcotic is the choice of the one misusing it, at least most of the time it is.
The situation with the second amendment is analogous. How are the gun manufacturers responsible for fools accidentally shooting themselves or madmen slaughtering others? But the anti-2nd amendment left is still trying to sue them.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 27, 2019 15:58:34 GMT -8
There is (or was; it's been years since I visited) a used bookstore in Bloomington, IN named Caveat Emptor. Visiting used to be an essential stop on a visit there.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 27, 2019 18:45:50 GMT -8
I think Artler might agree with me in that I’m perfectly fine with drug companies advertising to people. This ought to be a free country. The balancing side to that is that if you misuse the drugs (assuming that they have been indeed labeled honestly, side effects, etc.), you have no right to sue the drug companies.
I say this in that I don’t want an expertise-based country. Experts are nine times out of ten full of shit. That said, few of us have the time or knowledge to be our own doctor. We do need the advice of experts — but also ought to be free to make our own informed choices. Doctors have been known to be quacks, after all, and often they are pushing drugs for no other reason than a cozy relationship with a drug company.
I don’t want a system geared toward the dumbest, most careless person out there. And very often both government and experts are wrong. And they are almost always six months to two years behind the latest advances.
There is a price for living in a free country. And that price is some idiot buying a bunch of painkillers over the counter and getting hooked on them. And our first line of defense is indeed “buyer beware.”
I realize I’m spitting into the wind. Most people now want “experts” to handle everything so that they don’t have to think or make any hard choices. And if something then turns out wrong, it gives them the complete freedom to blame someone else. Such a deal. But that is a deal worthy only of sheep.
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