Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 21, 2020 10:44:18 GMT -8
Fine. I’ve relented so many times that widespread voter fraud is possible. I just ask for proof rather than endless conspiracy theories. I’m afraid I trust Trump about as much as I trust the Democrats. So pick your poison, I guess.
I’m not drinking that kool-aid, Mr. Kung. This is not about proving some voter fraud. It’s about proving enough to swing an election. That is the legal barrier that Trump faces.
Here’s the problem. The airwaves right now are filled with conspiracy theories. I think many people are in danger of being a Trump Rube if they don’t require evidence and instead rely on hearsay, conspiracy theories, and blind partisanship.
Trump is a bum and liar. To me, this is a known fact. He’s a carnival barker by trade and instinct. I’ll believe the election was stolen when we’re given credible evidence.
Again, there are a lot of things about the voting process that suck, even if Trump had won in a landslide. There are things that need to be fixed. But the relevant question is: Did the Democrats cheat to the extent that it changed the results of this election? We don’t know.
And given the fruit-loop notion that the Trump team apparently has of using state legislatures to gain electors (which I think McCarthy explains very well why this is not just bad but illegal), right now I’m not prepared to give the Trump team the benefit of the doubt. We all seem caught between a party that is corrupt (Democrats) and a party leader (Trump) who is dishonest if not a little nutty.
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Post by timothylane on Nov 21, 2020 10:44:37 GMT -8
I can well believe in extensive corruption among politicians, and also in widespread (though usually small-scale) vote fraud. Indeed, despite the extreme difficulty of proving fraud (made harder by the reluctance of many officials even to look for it), we have cases every year. When David Treen ran for Governor of Louisiana in 1979, someone said that he would need 51% of the vote to overcome Demagogue vote fraud. (He did in fact win.)
Of course, the Demagogues then dominated Louisiana, which made it easier to arrange that scale of vote fraud. A close race can be altered by fraud. There were at least 4 states (Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Arizona) where the margins were close enough. Michigan is more doubtful.
The foolishness of Raffensperger in making a deal with Spacey Abrams was perhaps crucial. The important thing is to make it possible for an audit to detect many forms of fraudulent ballots, which Abrams as a Demagogue would never favor.
Another thing is to look at the key Demagogue counties and try to compare their votes this year to both past results (allowing for population changes and also changes in patterns of support for both candidates) and results in similar counties in non-swing states (where the pressure for vote fraud would be much less).
There's no perfect system. But as various deadlines approach, the Trump team needs to prove their claims as soon as possible. The longer they wait, the more skeptical some of us are. Claims of modest vote fraud are quite easily believable -- this probably happens in every state, with many of our voting laws making it easier than it should be. But vote fraud sufficient to switch a state is another matter, unless you have an exceptionally close race (e.g., the 8858-vote margin in Illinois in 1960).
Another thing to point out is that claiming most of the Georgia Republican Party conspired to deprive Trump of victory there (which wouldn't be enough to alter the election) certainly is inconvenient in terms of winning the Senate run-offs there. If the Demagogues win them, we're in Come Nineveh, Come Tyre territory. If the GOP wins them, the damage the Yellow Jester can do is reduced, perhaps to a manageable level.
Think of it as the difference between continuing to warm up the water the frog is in, or holding him down while rapidly jacking up the warming.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 11:51:05 GMT -8
I will say again. This is not about Donald Trump. It is much, much bigger. This is about the clear attempt of the DBs, Tech Titans, Bloated Bureaucracy and One-Worlders to usurp our power as voters, and take over this country. I want Trump to prevail because his victory would be, by orders-of-magnitude, better for the country than his loss. Again, it is not about Trump's personal victory, it is about the victory of free-and-fair elections vs. a rigged set up. Frankly, I wouldn't care too much if Trump won and then retired on January 21, 2021. The only concern I would then have is that Pence wouldn't pursue the criminals as relentlessly as Trump would.
I have never said that Trump's attempt to win this would be easy. In fact, I have always said that the odds were stacked against him. But for anyone, who has been closely observing this election, to maintain that there has not been a huge coordinated effort at voter fraud is bizarre.
If someone serves me a scoop of chicken shit when I have ordered chicken salad, I don't need to send it to a lab to know the difference. Thus while it is very important to have the fraud claims proven in court, it is not unimportant to present them to the public and make very clear what is happening.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 12:20:38 GMT -8
To those like Andrew McCarthy, I simply point out the following.
In 1980, the USA Ice Hockey Team was a serious underdog to the U.S.S.R. Some sport's writers today figure the odds of the USA winning the Gold Medal would have been 1000 to 1. In any case, everyone back in 1980 knew that the USA was going to lose. Hell, they should have just given up, right?
Final score: USA 4, USSR 3. The USA went on to win the Gold Medal by defeating Finland.
This is why we let things play out in life. Churchill said it best, "Never surrender."
Faint heart never won fair lady!
Anyone who claims it would be better for the country if Trump conceded is a liar or delusional. In no way, shape or form would it be better for fraud to win than for it to lose.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 12:31:25 GMT -8
Despite the scum bag officials in Atlanta denying them a permit, it looks like thousands are already gathering in front of the Atlanta Courthouse for the Stop the Steal rally. More are still coming.
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Post by timothylane on Nov 21, 2020 12:39:01 GMT -8
Good points. My figuring is that until the electoral votes are cast, Trump doesn't need to concede -- if he actually has a case other than bluster. I have not yet treated the Yellow Jester as President-elect, though I consider it likely that he will win simply because of the magnitude of the hurdle Trump's legal team faces.
But then, it was likely that the Soviets would beat us in 1980, too, and they didn't. I know the difference between probable and certain, between unlikely and impossible. But Powell, Wood, and/or Giuliani have to act soon, with Georgia having already certified its results in accordance with the law, and Michigan and Pennsylvania doing so Monday. Note that a formal request for a recount comes after the votes are certified (Trump has to do so by Tuesday in Georgia).
Florida certified Bush's win there in 2000 a couple of weeks after Election Day, and the Goracle continued fighting all the way up to the day when the electors were to meet and vote. Trump has the right to do the same thing. But he must make his case. If Powell really has the evidence now (as she claims), there's no reason to wait.
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Post by timothylane on Nov 21, 2020 12:41:17 GMT -8
Good for the marchers. As long as they're peaceful (and conservatives generally are), they should have every right "to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances".
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 12:49:59 GMT -8
Earlier today, there was a rally in front of CNN headquarters. It was large and peaceful. The people who broadcast this rally had a clip of a rally at the same place by BLM types in March or April of this year. It wasn't so peaceful and graffiti had been painted all over the place.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 12:56:23 GMT -8
I have to say that I have always believed that Powell's case will take too long to halt the flow of things. I think if she has any chance to make an immediate impression, it will probably be in one or two states. Or her info might be used to help other cases.
The scope of her claims, if true, sounds so broad that it would likely take months to put everything together for a country-wide conspiracy case.
We will see.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 13:44:30 GMT -8
I listened to the man who is heading this suit today. He is the ex-Attorney General of Kansas. This is another serious suit.
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Post by artraveler on Nov 21, 2020 15:00:55 GMT -8
This is another serious suit. I wonder if this is what Powell is basing her accusations. It appears that a lot of the ground work has already been done. I wonder if there is a federal circuit court willing to buck the communists. ?
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Post by timothylane on Nov 21, 2020 15:06:23 GMT -8
The (Demagogue) Michigan Attorney General is talking about charging the GOP legislative leaders there with bribery or some such for meeting with Trump yesterday. None of the participants claim that Trump made any effort to press them to select the state's electors themselves (which they already said they wouldn't do), so it's hard to see what sort of case he could have.
But he's a Demagogue, who no doubt would be acting in Lansing, a Demagogue city in a Demagogue county. Who needs evidence or even a case under those circumstances?
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 15:40:12 GMT -8
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 16:01:22 GMT -8
This is further evidence I had previously read of. It seems the number of ballots is larger than previously thought.
DB magic.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 21, 2020 16:07:59 GMT -8
Cart before the horse. The Trump team needs to prove their allegations. If it was really “a clear attempt,” I doubt we’d be in disagreement about anything. But we just don’t know at this point.
My own view is the the Democrats did their normal amount of cheating. And I think on the other side of things, we’re all being played by Trump. He’s creating a narrative in order to save face and keep his Trumpism alive amongst his animal squad.
Good god, you think the Left is bad regarding groupthink? I cringe at the majority of Trump-can-do-no-wrong comments from the rabble under various articles. And I think Trump is doing little more than throwing red meat to them at this point.
I’ve read a couple articles by Andy McCarthy about all this. At the very least, the Trump legal team is a circus act.
There’s another side of this that I think isn’t stated explicitly but gets mixed in: Even if the Democrats didn’t cheat (at least enough to turn the election), aren’t the Left the media, and Democrats due some payback just on general principals?
Yes. But the time to play hardball has passed. Trump too often just let people walk all over him. He should have pursued charges against Hillary. He should have pursued charges against a whole lot of people. To do so, he needed to fire a few people as well to get them out of their way.
And he needed a clear message about what he is doing. That’s what bothers me about that c-word’s dismissal of Tucker Carlson. These assholes don’t seem to be smart enough to know a potentially yuge ally when they see one — unless, of course, all this shouting and moving around is simply about distraction and throwing red meat to the base. I suspect the Trump team has nothing and all this is just Trump being Trump. Of the Trump. By the Trump. For the Trump.
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Post by timothylane on Nov 21, 2020 16:31:27 GMT -8
The Pennsylvania report could be interesting. Mailed ballots broke heavily for the Yellow Jester, especially in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. There are so many that even if you just assumed they were as favorable to the Demagogues as the rest, it might come close to switching the state. Trump needs more than that, but it would be a major support for his effort if he could switch even one.
But it still needs to be proven, and soon. Otherwise, I'm afraid I have to agree with Brad. I also have to worry about the possibility that this could cost the GOP a lot of support down the line from people who've become convinced that voting is an exercise in futility. This would be especially tragic if the whole case relied mainly on bluster and bluff.
This is why we need proof. Until then, we have the words of people who could be liars, or who believe that what is theoretically possible must be what happened, or some such.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 16:38:52 GMT -8
No one is denying that this must be proven and relatively soon. I believe some very specific suits need to be submitted Thanksgiving week, or latest early the week thereafter.
This was always going to be a hard hill to climb, but I am very glad they are trying to get to the top.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 16:57:37 GMT -8
Further details of what the Amistad suit is about.
The Amistad lawyers have known about this for some time and tried to prevent some of the more egregious points. Note the following paragraph:
So someone can only get remedy after the crooks have stolen the election. What a wonderful system.
After reading the piece, tell me you still think this is just another case of the DBs carrying on their normal amount of voter fraud.
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Post by timothylane on Nov 21, 2020 18:41:17 GMT -8
That legal problem turns up in a lot of places. Violations of civil liberties require actual demonstrable harm, so we have to wait. And if people die as a result? Just collateral damage to the New Class.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 21, 2020 21:26:59 GMT -8
Now I know I am right in supporting Trump's fight.
This is the asshole who wrote a book that the modern left is based on fascism, but preferred them to Trump.
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