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Post by kungfuzu on May 28, 2020 7:20:01 GMT -8
This is a song from VII. Cetera wrote it while riding a motorcycle late at night. He said that unlike the other songs he has written, this one came to him all at once and he could remember it fully when he returned home. This is 100% Cetera, not Chicago. I think it is one of his best songs.
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Post by kungfuzu on May 28, 2020 7:30:25 GMT -8
I believe the problem was that Lamm, particularly early on, tried to project this social-justice personality to show how great a guy he was. He was concerned with poverty and inequality, don't ya know.
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May 28, 2020 7:34:08 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on May 28, 2020 7:34:08 GMT -8
Clearly virtue-signaling is not quite an invention of this century.
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Post by Brad Nelson on May 28, 2020 7:41:50 GMT -8
Re: Happy Man I was going to re-listen to VI before moving on to VII. But I’ll skip right to that song and listen through the Sony earphones. Oh, yeah. That song. I didn’t recognize it by the title. And I can see what you mean by “100% Cetera.” I assume he’s talking about a woman, not his bike. Yes, an honest, heartfelt song. Those who don’t believe in God should wonder about what energy or power is ultimately behind such inspirations. Not that God is involved directly in Top-40 music, of course. As far as I know.
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May 28, 2020 8:11:57 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on May 28, 2020 8:11:57 GMT -8
You would be assuming correctly. According to Cetera, he was riding down a highway at 65-70 miles per hour going to visit a particular lady, when this song came to him. I am most amazed that he still remembered the song when he returned home the next day.
To me this song is about a quiet joy swelling up inside. Just listening to it lifts me. I could see myself in a ballroom dancing around the floor with my love. We would need a lot of space as we would be gliding across the floor. Pure happiness.
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Post by Brad Nelson on May 28, 2020 8:50:00 GMT -8
The Left ruins everything they touch, including true emotion. So much of the “emotion” in songs to today is staged, forced, fake, and exists not for heartfelt reasons but for politically-correct reasons.
So when the guy writes a song about love, I don’t dismiss it as lightweight. We have badly erred in this country and in this world to assign “serious” to a bunch of half-talented asshole posers.
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Chicago
May 28, 2020 9:05:55 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on May 28, 2020 9:05:55 GMT -8
Special Guest: Igor Butman. You couldn’t make up a name like that. Or maybe you could. But another good Chicago cover by Leonid & Friends. Love the guy on the sax. No doubt that was Ivan Saxman.
That group doesn't go after those covers half-hearted.
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Post by kungfuzu on May 28, 2020 9:12:24 GMT -8
Absolutely correct. There is huge difference between something being "lightweight" and something having a lightness about it. This song has a bright and light feel about it which creates a mood of joy. Love can do that. There is nothing dark about this song. We need more such "light" music in our lives.
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May 28, 2020 9:13:37 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on May 28, 2020 9:13:37 GMT -8
I believe Igor was the saxophonist.
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May 28, 2020 9:51:09 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on May 28, 2020 9:51:09 GMT -8
Yes. And even so, I have much more tolerance for a song such as "Love Me Do" than all the dark crap posing as "serious" just because it's, A) vulgar; B) hyper-sexualized; C) posing as a social justice warrior while raking in capitalist millions; or D) All of the above.
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Post by Brad Nelson on May 28, 2020 16:54:04 GMT -8
Wow. I just had a moment listening to this stuff. Chicago VII was their first studio double album since III and their last studio double album. Apparently there was at least a mild conflict between those who wanted it very jazzy and those who wanted it more popular-oriented. They compromised and included both, thus the double album. So I’m listening to this from the start. I have to admit that tracks one through 5 (all instrumental) and track 6 (Lamm) fit together snuggly in a sort of jazz-side-of-Chicago way. And I accept it as being good and certainly listenable. This is not some of the (to my pig brain) awful black-sounding stuff Lamm screeches out here and there on some previous albums. So I’m going along, pretty much taken away with this jazz mood. And then up pops Cetera’s song, “Happy Man.” If ever there was a more gently shot across the bow (the bow of this jazz-a-thon), it would have been a feather shot in front of an angel food cake. But it was abrupt and a stark difference in its own way.
Cetera seemingly hijacks this jazz orgy and inserts something so splendid and soulful (and joyful) that (and this may be entirely unfair) it makes me think that some jazz musicians do jazz because they have nothing specific or meaningful to say. Boom. Cetera enters with “Happy Man.” And I don’t know if the jazz (to its credit) softened me up. But that song stood out like a gem, as if I’d never heard it before. And for some damn reason, it became an emotional moment.
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Post by kungfuzu on May 28, 2020 18:17:33 GMT -8
I listened to a pod cast with Peter Cetera last night and he said something I had not heard before. He and the interviewer were talking about Chicago's style of music and how some within the group had a somewhat holier-than-thou attitude, (my words) about pop and wanted to do more jazzy pieces. Peter laughed at this and said that this was somewhat self-deluding as Chicago was and had always been a rock group playing some jazz, whereas Blood Sweat and Tears had been a jazz group playing some rock. That said a lot to me about what was happening in the group at the time. This was before XVI.
David Foster came in to discuss producing an album with them and, according to Cetera, Foster pulled Cetera to the side and said that the stuff they had played for Foster was crap. Cetera agreed with Foster and basically said now you understand my problem. Again, according to Cetera, the root of the problem was that everyone in Chicago was strung out on dope and booze, including for a while Cetera. You can write good music if you are always on dope. Cetera had already decided to get clean while the others didn't and this helped him with his writing. Foster suggested he and Cetera work together on some songs and it was these songs that made XVI and XVII hits. Again, my words.
You are absolutely correct. It is the musical equivalent of "If you can't convince them with the facts, then baffle them with bullshit." Miles Davis was a past master at this type of rubbish. Picasso was the past master of this with "art." I believe there is nothing more rare/difficult than coming up with something pure, simple and original in all fields of art. It is almost as difficult to include incredibly difficult riffs in a piece and make them relevant and meaningful i.e. a necessary part of a piece as opposed to simply showing off.
This is what music, and in fact all art, is about. That fleeting moment during which everything comes together and one experiences something almost religious. These things cannot be described by words, particularly such musical experiences, as music is the most abstract of the arts.
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May 28, 2020 19:27:05 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on May 28, 2020 19:27:05 GMT -8
One would want to hear the other side, of course. But I can’t help thinking that the one or two pop songs per album (admittedly contributed more or less by all at some time) kept them in a well-funded drug haze, if that’s what some got lost in.
All that you write (and the Cetera says) jives with the deep-background intuition I have while listening to these albums. On the one hand, you don’t have those amazing production values and instrumentality behind the pop hits without that jazz background and desire to do jazz, even if just sometimes an affectation. (Love the idea of it being a rock band playing some jazz, and not the other way around.)
Peter Cetera, for instance, can count himself lucky (and I’m sure he did/does) that he had such talented people to work with. His songs were fleshed out in a manner he otherwise would not have had access to.
I’ve listened to some good jazz. And some of that now (some of it) includes Chicago. But, yeah, I think you said a mouthful that aspects of jazz are “If you can’t convince them with the facts, then baffle them with bullshit.”
Art, ostensibly, is meant to enrich our lives, to raise us out of the ignoble and humdrum to something pure, elegant, and meaningful. The world is a lie, or at least is filled with liars. Most become so wrapped up in the human drama of ego-projection and ass-covering that the very idea of truth (as we see from the Left, for example) becomes an idea that is laughable, something for the unenlightened rubes to believe in.
Jaded. Corrupt. Ignoble. We’re all tainted by it. And, yeah, so when by whatever means you get zapped between the eyes by that moment when it all comes together, it is reason for celebration — on two counts. One, there is something beautiful in the world. Two, responding to it is evidence that one has not yet been completely buried over by the yuck of the world.
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Post by kungfuzu on May 28, 2020 19:40:48 GMT -8
I have no doubt that Cetera knew and knows that Chicago was a very talented bunch of people. They made some excellent music together. Not only that, the band was something original at the time. But drugs, booze and success will, more often than not, lower the quality of the product anyone produces. Many people believe that drugs and booze are necessary to produce high-quality rock music, but they are more important for the marketing myth than the actual product.
Of course, when the most talented member and de facto leader of the group, Terry Kath, died things had to change. There is little doubt that Cetera became the primary mover of the group after that. It may not have seemed that way to the band, (I believe it did and several like, I suspect, Parazaider were envious) but that's the way the public saw it. Since Cetera left, Chicago has been a live "golden oldies" band. What a waste.
Danny Seraphine, the drummer, has said that they should never have forced Cetera's hand and that it was a big mistake for the band. Seraphine was also kicked out of the band about 5-6 years after Cetera was, but he admits he somewhat deserved it, while Cetera didn't.
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Post by Brad Nelson on May 29, 2020 18:51:36 GMT -8
Summing up: Chicago VII, pretty good. Now onto . . .
Chicago VIII.
I disliked every single one of the first nine songs. I either grudgingly listened to the song or, more often than not, fast-forwarded after about a minute after trying to give it a fair try.
At this point I’m listening only out of a historic sense of curiosity. Then out of the blue comes song #10. It was like stepping out of the garbage-strewn ghettos of Detroit and onto the golden pavement of Shangri-La. It was like being lost in the suburbs trying to find your way to the freeway entrance with a GPS. It was like sitting at a stoplight for an hour and then a big-breasted blond walks by in front of you in the crosswalk.
It was all those things and more when “Old Days” crashed this dull party and put a lampshade on the album’s head and brought the good booze. An album that was drowning in mediocrity was (at least probably in regard to sales) rescued.
Funny thing is, I kind of like the bonus tracks on the version I listened to that follow “Old Days”. If you want to try to figure out what kind of Chicago jazz I like, a good representation of that would be “Sixth Sense (Rehearsal).” I do not object to jazziness, per se. Even the soft track that follows it, “Bright Eyes (Rehearsal)” is nice. “Satin Doll (Live)” is a crisp track as well.
Enough said about VIII. Other than pulling a few songs from it if I ever create a “best off” playlist, it will be ignored.
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Post by kungfuzu on May 29, 2020 20:19:10 GMT -8
I agree completely. This is the weakest of their first eight albums and it is the one which stays least in my mind. I am not even sure whether or not I have it, but I probably do.
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Chicago
May 30, 2020 7:25:38 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on May 30, 2020 7:25:38 GMT -8
Although Chicago X wasn't full of hits (but the one it had was yuge), I found it quite listenable, minus one or two of the usual songs, usually by Lamm. I'm going to give the album another listen and then report back in more detail. Okie doke.
By the way, "If You Leave Me Now" isn't even in my top 10 of favorite Chicago tunes. I find it a little whiny and repetitive. But it was significant as the band's first #1 single.
He sounded fine to me. It was a refreshing change.
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Post by kungfuzu on May 30, 2020 8:16:15 GMT -8
If this is true one has to question Parazaider's musical ability and ear. Frankly, I don't believe it. Cetera has a very distinctive voice which can be recognized from a mile away.
At one time, you could put the stylus down on a record and play the first note of any Chicago song, and I could tell you the title. One note. Admittedly, I listened to Chicago A LOT and I have or had a very good ear for music. But it doesn't seem plausible that one of the band's members couldn't recognize their own song. Sounds like an after-the-breakup invented story to me.
I agree the song sounds a little whimpy, but it is a further step of Cetera dominating the band and clearly some didn't like it. But they didn't mind the money.
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May 30, 2020 13:23:59 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on May 30, 2020 13:23:59 GMT -8
You never know. Maybe his horns weren’t needed in the recording session and he’d actually never heard the song. But, yeah, Cetera’s voice is very distinctive. Still, sour grapes or otherwise, there were apparently some interesting dynamics in the band:
Who knows? But as I had read (and you said), Cetera started to become the face of Chicago, especially when his hits, in particular, started dominating, and particularly as MTV was becoming the face of music in the early 80’s.
Come to think of it, would it be safe to say that the “Adult Contemporary” category was invented for Phil Collins and Peter Cetera?
It as also nice to read that Cetera took good care of his voice by (according to him) avoiding alcohol and tobacco. He retired from performing only a couple years ago apparently.
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May 30, 2020 13:44:31 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on May 30, 2020 13:44:31 GMT -8
I don't believe it. I saw Chicago around September of 1973 in Munich and Terry Kath did not walk off the stage. The closest he came to doing this was when, while playing a solo he broke the top E string, as I recall, on his Fender Stratocaster and had to transpose up everything he was playing to adjust for this. That was extremely impressive. When he had finished the solo and the roadie finally got the replacement guitar out to the stage, a Fender Telecaster, Kath took the Stratocaster and holding it by its neck, like a pendulum, dropped it (bam) on the stage and started playing the Telecaster.
Here is further data which contradicts what this guy claims.
Finally, in the five Chicago concerts I went to, there were no other guitarists present. Period.
In fact, the reverse of this guy's claim was true. The only time I saw the band members leave the stage for an extended period of time was in the first Chicago concert I went to in Dallas. There Kath played the absolute best "Johnny B. Goode" I have ever heard. Once he started the rest of the band walked off the stage and Kath tore the place up.
Now does that mean that Kath necessarily liked "Just You and Me?" No, it doesn't, but I followed Chicago extremely closely in my yute and Kath was too much of a professional to do such a thing, in my opinion. On the other hand, he may have been getting fed up with the direction Chicago had been going in for some time. Cetera believes had Kath lived, he would have been the first one to leave the group and it would have been some years before Cetera did.
I looked further and here is absolute proof that what this guy claims is bullshit. Go to about 13:10 in the video and watch through to the end of the song. Clearly Kath is playing the guitar. This is a Chicago concert in Houston in 1977.
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