|
Post by artraveler on Sept 2, 2021 5:47:10 GMT -8
It is enough to make the old gunny cry
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Sept 2, 2021 6:16:23 GMT -8
I believe that great warriors are virtually never of much use in times of peace. It is, I believe, one of the costs that we bear being a hard man killing other hard men. It is also one of the reasons most warriors do not talk much of combat to POGs (people other than grunts). No matter how you explain, have pictures or even, now days videos. No one other than another vet truly knows and understands. Often even other vets who have not been in combat have a clue. In effect we are often closer to our enemy than to the nation we defend. There are many organizations who do a good job to habituate combat vets and what we now call PTSD can be helped with counseling and some drugs, but in the long run it is up to the vet. Some, for reasons often complex and contradictory never recover. These are the guys most likely to eat their gun. Others turn to drugs or alcohol to redress the pain. For myself, it was a year of solid drinking and the love of the best women I have ever loved. I still feel separated from the larger culture, but I understand the reasons and the cost. I will never eat my gun. On the other hand, we who have mostly adjusted have come terms with the sad fact that the culture we defended and love has no use for us unless we are in combat. We stand apart from from our culture always loving it and never completely a part of it.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 2, 2021 7:35:29 GMT -8
We’re getting to the point where I’m not sure it has use for any of us unless you are a mindless “woke” drone. But thanks for the explanation of the situation. I guess things like the Germans and British stopping the war in order to play some soccer then makes abundant sense.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 2, 2021 8:23:35 GMT -8
My mother had four brothers. All were involved in WWII. I think two were in Italy, one was a cook stationed in Europe, and another may have been in the Pacific. Three of them drank themselves to an early grave. My mother would often say that none of them would talk about the war. That's why I don't know much more than vague generalities.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Sept 5, 2021 10:28:56 GMT -8
A nice short article which puts the U.S.'s "forever wars" in some perspective. Don't be surprised if the author points out some of the same things we have said. Volunteer military at root of problems Biden's monumental screw up in Kabul is having one positive result. Many people in the military and military publications are beginning to question much of the foreign policy choices of the military-industrial-financial-national security-foreign policy complex. This foreign policy has made many of those connected to this complex very rich, but has been paid for, in blood and money, by the deplorables in the U.S. and elsewhere. I hope this "awakening" does not stop.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 5, 2021 12:57:03 GMT -8
I'm not kidding, Mr. Flu. I was just thinking the other day about whether that all-volunteer military had created a different dynamic.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Sept 5, 2021 13:37:23 GMT -8
I can believe that. We are living in times which cause people to start questioning what is actually going on and why. Hopefully, enough people will start doing this or at least start listening to those who are asking questions, that things will improve.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Sept 5, 2021 15:20:19 GMT -8
I was just thinking the other day about whether that all-volunteer military had created a different dynamic. Indeed it has. In the early 70s the draft was still an event every man had to deal with. Military benefits for short term draftees were minimal unless they stayed in the service as a career and served 20 years. It is surprising how many did in spite of underfunded weapons systems, slow promotion and an iron core of elite officer class that did not take to mustangs. (officers promoted on ability from the ranks). Today the only people in the military are those who want to be there, wether officer or NCO all signed the same contract. On the surface this sounds like a more fair and equitable system. However, what it has created is a large number of POGs, (people other then grunts) who have no understanding of the military or the special qualities of leadership required to order other men into battle knowing that some, or all of them may be killed. To a real leader these men and women are not part of some video game and if the shit turns bad just reset and start over. This large number of families who have continued to volunteer their service through our forever wars of the late 20th and early 21st century are held to a different standard by our culture and unfortunately kept separate from it. Just about every time I go out to the store or a restaurant some one thanks me for my service. I do appreciate the gesture and the notice, but I always wonder, where were you when some communist or jahadi was trying to kill me? Where were you when people I respected and loved were killed or wounded? Where were you when I could't get home for the Hollidays? Often the only person a vet in trouble can talk to is another vet. Veterans are a large underclass in our culture but in terms of numbers still about 1/10 of 1% of the total population. The larger culture doesn't want to see or hear form us. The often harsh realities we talk about is more than their delicate ears can handle. To my knowledge the only Western country that still has universal conscription is Israel and there are some big loopholes in that, as it allows for a significant section of the population to use a religious exemption. However, even with that the bulk of Israeli high school grads do two years active and as much as 30 years in reserve. Conscription brings elements of society together that normally would never meet. It reinforces the common goals of fellowship and citizenship. It keeps the command structure involved as the privates and NCOs are just as likely to be as well educated as the officers. It broadens the officer corps when new officers come into service based on ability rather than birth.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 5, 2021 18:14:03 GMT -8
Thanks for the inside-baseball perspective, Artler. It's a sobering one.
"Thank you for your service" are words often heard (and meant) in these parts, although probably many don't understand what the service involves.
And yet, in these parts, they probably do more than most. You can't swing a dead cat in this area without hitting a Marine, sailor, or their family. I grew up with a fleet of mothballed ships in Sinclair Inlet (including the Missouri). There are not so many old ships these days, but an outsider might suppose there's a war going on.
We depend upon the military in a very real and immediate way. For jobs, yes, but even that connection can deepen the tie. We're generally not the kind of people who don't know that shrink-wrapped beef in the supermarket actually requires a dead cow. You wonder if many of today's mental snowflakes even know that.
So I get a chance to talk to ex military men frequently, including my special forces guy who never runs out of stories. Even so, I know I'm not getting the stories that are told from vet-to-vet. You can't talk about that stuff to people who haven't experienced it.
But I had a brother and uncle on the fire department. We got all kinds of inside-baseball realities of what goes on behind the scenes. The police and firemen are our garbage collectors. If anyone had the slightest inkling of what these guys face every day, only a committed lunatic would ever consider defunding the police. They are the people who give us the luxury of thinking good of our fellow man.
And the military men give us the luxury to bitch about one's fries not being hot enough while someone out there mans the wall. At least in Bremerton, we are aware of that.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Sept 5, 2021 18:48:42 GMT -8
Please don't get me wrong. I know that millions of men and women are more like you and Kung and I truly do accept your thanks as sincere and heartfelt.
My father left the Marines in 1947 to marry my mother and in 1949 to make a little extra money joined the National Guard. He thought it grand that he got a bump in rank to 1st sergeant from Marine Gunny and only had to commit to occasional weekends and summer training. One year later his was the first guard unit called up for Korea. He spent several hours on the phone getting out of the army national guard and back into the Marines. I believe he actually talked to Chesty Puller to get back to the 1st Marine Division.
I asked him years later why? His response was classic, "son don't you know people get killed in the army?" What he was saying was when the shit is the heaviest, and you need someone to have your 6, he did't think the army was a place to be. I have told that story to vets and non vets all my life and from vets I get understanding and from non vets just a puzzled look.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 5, 2021 19:17:17 GMT -8
That's an interesting perspective. I would have figured that Marines got the hardest and thus most dangerous missions so why go there. I'm fairly sure that's true. But whatever the level of danger, I can see how it would make all the difference that you could rely on and trust that man next to you. One supposes the professionalism factor must be way higher in the Marines.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Sept 5, 2021 19:35:20 GMT -8
Switzerland still has universal conscription for males. I don't recall the exact details, but I believe they have to spend a year or two in active and something like 20 years in the reserves. Officers have to spend more time in the military than soldiers. I also believe they still keep their weapons at home. When I was living in Switzerland this is weapon which I saw in a couple of homes. SG 510 Amazingly, the Swiss didn't go around killing each other left and right.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Sept 5, 2021 20:07:14 GMT -8
Amazingly, the Swiss didn't go around killing each other left and right. Neither have the Swiss invaded Germany, Italy or France. Must be something in the water of Lake Geneva.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Sept 5, 2021 20:13:10 GMT -8
I think as a generalization and until recent event are proving the opposite. Marine officers are better leaders than army. More skilled at war fighting and better trained as leaders.
There is a Marine joke that goes, what do you call a Marine Lance Corporal in the army? Answer, Sir!
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Sept 5, 2021 20:24:10 GMT -8
Over my years of travel, I have run across a number of servicemen in airports around the nation and world. I don't recall ever saying the words, "Thank you for your service." I always thought them a bit trite, too easy for someone to say. In fact, not meaning much. Maybe I am too sensitive, but in ways it seems as if someone might be trying to have a little of that service rub off on them. Perhaps I am overthinking it.
If I felt it was appropriate, I might buy one a drink of some kind. I don't like to be too familiar with people and especially dislike insincere back slapping behavior.
Once I met a young soldier in transit and we talked for some time. We were waiting several hours for our connecting flights. In any case, I got up to buy some food and offered to buy him a MacDonalds or Burger King meal. He had been eating some french fries or such when I first came in. I can't remember if he accepted or not. My thought was not only about his service, but that any little bit of money he might save would be helpful for his family.
More memorable was the time, it must have been toward the end of 1982, my wife and I met some young British sailors who had fought in the Falklands War. One of them had been on the HMS Sheffield, the ship that was sunk by an Exorcet anti-ship missile. That a missile could sink a ship seemed to shock a lot of people at the time. In any case, he told us that the reason the vessel sank was because the missile hit a heavy beam in the vessel and ricocheted into the main part of the vessel. As I recall, he felt that if it had not hit the beam it would have gone through the other side of the ship and done less damage.
This one sailor was 19 years old when we met. I bought him and a friend of his a couple of beers, more because it was an enjoyable conversation than anything else.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Sept 5, 2021 20:30:55 GMT -8
More likely Lake Lucerne.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 5, 2021 21:05:54 GMT -8
In the context of things (such as being spat on when debarking a plane that's just landed home), "Thank you for your service" I would think is a verbal handshake. The words may be trite but that the servicemen are acknowledged and thanked at all I would think is yuge...especially when compared to spitting on them or calling them baby-killers.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Sept 5, 2021 21:30:46 GMT -8
I haven't heard of servicemen being spat on or called baby-killers since 1973 or so. Even then, I never saw any of this personally. Maybe it's because I am from Texas. After the First Gulf War, all I heard was a relief in the voices of Americans. The "shame" of Vietnam was past. America was back. Since then, what I have heard about American servicemen has been almost 100% appreciative. This was particularly the case after 9/11. As Artler has alluded to, I will bet you a dime to a dollar that many, if not most, servicemen tire of hearing such things after a while. Is its constant use a sign of guilt that one didn't personally serve? I don't know, but I do know that saying thank you to a stranger for an undefined job, which you don't have any details about is not worth much. Do you even know what your are thanking him for? If you know the serviceman, know what he or she went through and what it may have cost them, well ok. But in too many cases, I believe it is about the equivalent of the "Have a nice day" mantra which never meant much, but has now lost all meaning, perhaps is insincere most of the time. Just filling a few seconds of silence. The overuse and insincere use devalue the words and thus the sentiment for many. Yes, I know I am probably overthinking this, but that is something I often do.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 6, 2021 7:31:34 GMT -8
Thank you for killing the camel fuckers. There…all better.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Sept 6, 2021 8:12:18 GMT -8
camel fuckers Do you know why camels are called the ships of the desert? Because they are full of Arab seamen.
|
|