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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 18, 2023 11:06:52 GMT -8
You have touched upon perhaps the key question regarding the need and source of "organized" religion. Of course, even organized religion can work to bring people closer to God, but I believe the main aim of organized religion is societal. It is to create and maintain certain standards which help to tame men's baser characteristics thereby bring order and some amount of security to a community.
Again, Rabbinical Judaism, Catholicism and Islam all meet this description.
The question of one's personal relationship to the divine, might have roots in organized religion, but goes beyond that. By its very nature, it might be seen as a threat to the organized Church, Synagogue or Mosque.
A very good example of how this type of thing was seen as a threat to the powers that be is the Catholic repression of the interpretation of the Bible in to any vulgar tongue. Men were burned at the stake for doing this. As I recall, this is what got Wycliff executed.
Why would an organization, the purpose of which is to bring people to God and redemption, forbid the translation of the Vulgate into comprehensible English, German or French? Might it be control? Of course, they could use the excuse that the great unwashed did not have the education to understand the Bible, thus needed the Church to act as interpreter. But I still see the main reason as the desire for control.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 18, 2023 11:09:56 GMT -8
I am probably a late nineteenth century/early 20th century Central European Jew culturally.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 18, 2023 11:22:53 GMT -8
I agree completely. I think that is probably a base line. He might have also been familiar with, even debating some of the aspects of Rabbinic Judaism which were bubbling up around the Sea of Galilee at the time.
The intent of my question was to make one stop and think about what Jesus meant with his statement. It seems to me that few people actually stop and consider the possibilities. To try and do so, means one needs to have at least a small knowledge of the times. That is no guarantee that one will be able to state, with certainty, Jesus meant this or that. To do so would simply show one's own bias for this or that interpretation.
All a searcher can do is inform himself and try to tease out a meaning, knowing that it is impossible to know for sure.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 12:35:31 GMT -8
Yes, of course. Surely there are more than a few Karens in the hierarchy who love control for control's sake. But, institutionally, it's about controlling the power, money, and prestige. And for the Catholic Church, in particular, those things are vast.
In a Protestant church, there can be immediate controls on a minister who is incompetent, a spendthrift, is diddling the congregants' children, or is otherwise morally unfit for his position. They can fire him. But they don't tend to fire popes, bishops, or even priests. And if the Catholic hierarchy does do that, it looks like their proximate motivation (of late) is to tamp down on the few ethical priests, bishops, or cardinals who point out that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.
For the Catholic laity, the promised functions of the church (the Sacraments) continue no matter how screwed up the Church is, thus you might hear a few grumbles. But the franchise continues to dispense spiritual Big Macs so all is well, from a personal perspective.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 13:56:55 GMT -8
I think we all are doing our best at being 19th century Jews. To be fair to the Catholics (give us a sign, Timothy...to be fair), there are plenty of orders or allowances for a more scholarly or intellectual orientation to religion. I'm either an agnostic 19th century Jew or 6th century Benedictine. I use to suppose I was a Trapist, But, me?, a vow of silence. As Dana Carvey said, "Nah gonna dooit."
There are (or were), of course, sects (heresies) that see the world as inherently evil and something to wall yourself off from. But outside of that, yeah, any religion worth its sacred salt ought to teach people how to live well and good in this world. I completely agree with you.
However, that individual-conscience/institutional-integrity push-and-pull has always been a tough one to balance. If you don't have shared dogma, all you have is a social club (which, arguably, many churches, Catholic or otherwise, have become). But when you forbid translating the bible into the local language, you have just exposed your dark authoritarian side.
Right now, I don't know how to read the Catholic Church. Obviously there is the wholesale substitution of Leftist/woke dogma over Christian or Church dogma. But does this bother the rank-and-file? Pedophile priests do tend to at least get lip service from the laity, but do they withhold their funds? I seriously doubt that many do. And the Pink Mafia seems to have so successfully wound its way into the Church that I don't know that they'll ever get them out. And when Jesus becomes secondary to Drag Queen Story Hour, how long can your Church survive, especially if it actually does so based upon Divine blessing?
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 18, 2023 14:11:14 GMT -8
This 10 minute video from Victor Davis Hanson is a must see. He gets it and lays it out in a clear manner. I love his last line, but one has to have watched the previous part of the video to understand it. The crooks are afraid and will fight harder
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 14:40:44 GMT -8
The searching can be its own reward. And you're bound to find something.
But the allusive nature of a certainly-known God is akin to the atom. Yes, apparently there is a nucleus. Yes, apparently there are orbiting (of a sort) electrons. These work as models.
But apparently, technically, electrons don't actually orbit a nucleus. They are some amorous quantum "cloud" of probability. In fact, it seems anything that physicists look close enough devolves into something akin to the Cheshire Cat. Everything dissolves to nothingness. And very often, they don't even get the iconic grin left behind.
There is no known way to quantify God. That is the reality. And it provides both an opportunity and a danger. The opportunity is that, yes, faith and prayer are real and rational ways to throw your human electrons out there in hope that they orbit and intersect with that which has no known form or normal existence, but must rationally exist.
The dangers, we all know. Faith is something that is easy to manipulate. You might find God a difficult thing to find directly. But deposit your money in the box and you can be sure that He will notice this tangible act and reward you. Revealed truths face the same inherent difficulties. They may exist and probably do exist. But distinguishing between the real and phony is not a task for the faint of heart.
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Post by artraveler on Nov 18, 2023 15:33:37 GMT -8
"If it paid better they would be fascist" And so would the students. I can understand that students attend university to learn. What is difficult to understand is the large number who spend 5-10 years as students and emerge with degrees that prove to be worthless and the student is more ignorant then when they finished high school. I continue to hold to my earlier observation that universities exist to provide jobs and resources for faculty and staff, students are a waste product of this system.
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Post by artraveler on Nov 18, 2023 16:03:37 GMT -8
Why would an organization, the purpose of which is to bring people to God and redemption, forbid the translation of the Vulgate into comprehensible English, German or French? Might it be control? Control is, of course, the primary reason. However, don't disregard the matter of literacy. For the better part of 1500 years the Catholic Church existed in an environment of ignorance. Often the only person in a town or village was the priest, and he did not teach reading and writing. It was his supreme knowledge that gave the church social control and for the most part the congregations were complicit. The Reformation brought about drastic changes in culture along with the invention of moveable type allowing for mass printing. In the one hundred years from 1525 to 1625 literacy, particularly bible litericy exploded. When the Puratians crossed the Atlantic headed for the new world they were not ignorant surfs and contact labor. Literacy was as high among this group, male and female as it is today, about 95%. Back in Europe literacy was slowly growing in the Catholic countries but in England, parts of Germany, and the Low Countries it was expanding with the growth of Protestantism.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 16:10:36 GMT -8
It's a nice idea to investigate the Dems and go for prosecutions. But no one was as feckless in the face of the Deep State as Trump. I don't think the Democrats are afraid of him. I think they know they can beat him easily. The more they attack Trump, the more his supporters dig in. And thus any good conservative candidate is overlooked and we are doomed almost certainly to four more years with a Democrat as president.
I don't think the Democrats lose any sleep over the idea of the Republicans in the House and/or Senate prosecuting them. I'm pretty sure they're are certain as I am that the Republicans don't have what it takes to play hardball. Our side is being successfully rope-a-doped.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 16:20:48 GMT -8
A case can be made that the Reformation and the subsequent somewhat robust spread of Protestantism (36.7% worldwide) at the expense of Catholicism (50.1%) was fueled by literacy. When you find out either that you're being taken and/or that you don't need the priesthood for salvation, you might indeed see the light.
However, as we see in our own time, literacy can count for almost nothing compared to whatever dogma you're being programmed with. Will Bill Maher post his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the White House? Maybe. But the Progressive sheep are kept dumb and obedient even though most are reasonably literate. Indulgences are exactly analogous to Carbon Credits. "Climate Change" is the Church.
In accordance with Kung's Rule #29: If the sheep offer themselves to be sheered, what's a good wolf to do? You almost can't blame the Democrats for manipulating the fools who vote for them.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 16:28:21 GMT -8
Given the explosion of faculty and "management" positions (Who really needs a "diversity director"?), that must certainly be a large part of it. Indoctrination plays a role. Inattentive and materialist parents footing the bill for much of this plays a role. The idiots who give these universities money (aka "endow") out of some sense of god-knows-what plays a role.
I would like to see an explosion of cheap, effective, and free-of-wokeness universities. But so many chase the empty prestige of a University name. As discussed here before, we've seen reports of companies who now know the game is fixed and they are apparently aware the those degrees may not be worth the paper they are printed on. This bubble has to burst at some point.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 17:40:52 GMT -8
One thing you've got to give the Catholics (perhaps the Jews as well) is the grandeur of their churches and cathedrals. These are buildings that can transport you from the normal world to the mystical reality of God Almighty.
Most Protestant churches, in my opinion, are poor stepchildren. They are often little removed from the gymnasium of a high school in terms of aesthetics.
Granted, many a denomination finds a virtue in simplicity. Fine. But Protestant churches still look and feel like the poor stepchild.
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Post by artraveler on Nov 18, 2023 19:34:49 GMT -8
These are buildings that can transport you from the normal world to the mystical reality of God Almighty. For the paucity of Protestant churches, you have to thank the two Johns, Knox and Calvin. Both took the idea of religion so seriously that in many churches today any music other than voice is forbidden. That said, there is a valid argument that many churches and some synagogues have turned from serious spiritual life into a Saturday or Sunday stage show. The mega churches seem to have focused in this area. However, it is also easy to understand how Knox and Calvin came to be. The excess of the Roman Church became just too much by the end of the renaissance. Indulgences, basically buying your way into heaven, became a method of raising money for parishes and popes. The indulgence business got a fast track under Alexander VI, Borgia of course, but it really took off under his successors, Pias III, Julius II, and Leo X. It was excesses of these three that prompted an obscure priest, Martin Luther, to rebellion and reform.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2023 20:46:30 GMT -8
I don't know what the Catholics are doing. But, of my, yes. A modern Protestant church is more likely to transport you to MTV than Heaven. Psalm 46:10: “Be still, and know that I am God" Oh, hahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Tell me another one. Maybe "Go slowly deaf, and know that I am God." Or, "Be Vegas, and know that I am God." Well, the Protestants in their infinite wisdom threw the baby out with the bathwater. They could have still built fabulous places* of worship. But then, I suppose that was considered a "Catholic" thing to have extravagant taste.
--- *Crystal Palaces don't count. Those are buildings built for television, not to transport an individual soul to communion with God Almighty. These palaces are built for almighty ratings.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 18, 2023 22:09:28 GMT -8
Like these? Losers all Do the Repukelicans have a potentially "good" candidate? I don't see one. Like the piece says, they are just like the Demonrats. Six of one, a half dozen of the other. A pox on both their houses, which is actually one big house.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 19, 2023 17:06:27 GMT -8
Theologically speaking, the Church is the Body of Christ, i.e. the congregation/members. The building is irrelevant. The early Christians met in homes and other places. They had no Cathedrals and such. Large and fancy churches generally came about only after Constantine the Great. Judaism is explicit about worshiping graven images. Early Christianity followed this law. How so many statues and such came to be so integral a part of the Catholic Church is something I cannot claim to know much about. Like the worship of saints, it is foreign to original Christian beliefs. Many have heard of the Iconoclasts who arose during the Reformation, but the original Christian Iconoclasts popped up in the Byzantine Empire during the 8th century A.D. While I believe basic Christian belief leans toward modest places of worship, I am thankful for the huge artistic, cultural, literary and spiritual patrimony of the Catholic Church. Europe would be a much less interesting place without places like Nortre-Dame, Melk-Abbey, the Vatican and Santiago de Compostela. This place, not so much. Looks like a basketball court, but its Baptist.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 19, 2023 19:12:55 GMT -8
An interesting read is The Pillars of the Earth which is mainly about the erection of a medieval 12 century Cathedral.
The general impression left by that book is that Cathedrals were that era's space program. The common conception is that evil Catholic Church taxed the over-burdened peasants into poverty to pay for their extravagances. But at least according to this book (and other sources), these great buildings were generally a literal godsend to people. It gave them a connection to something grand in their often grubby and difficult lives.
I mean, Jesus is magic. It might indeed be real magic. I don't know. But once you have that, it's not much of a step to the intersession of the Saints, holy relics, and the whole menagerie.
Our modern grubby, gray Protestant edifices leave few in awe of God Almighty. Perhaps that's why they need to blast the audio-visual equipment. Good god. It's no exaggeration to say that the average church today probably has more and better sound equipment than the Beatles or Rolling Stones ever had.
Places such as Notre-Dame are a beacon in the night. And Europe is in a spiritual night at the moment. And they likely will never wake from it. But there is a light that still shines. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
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Post by artraveler on Nov 19, 2023 21:38:01 GMT -8
An interesting read is The Pillars of the Earth which is mainly about the erection of a medieval 12 century Cathedral. Many of those churches were closed or torn down thanks to Henry VIII. The survivors all became Episcopal or English Catholic. New churches were even built in North America. The most notable is the National catheral which took over 100 years to complete. It appears that even G-d can be held back by government incompetence. cathedral.orgIt's no exaggeration to say that the average church today probably has more and better sound equipment than the Beatles or Rolling Stones ever had.
There is one noteable difference. The Stones and the Beatles all paid taxes.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 19, 2023 21:46:15 GMT -8
Yes old Hank stole virtually all the property belonging to the Catholic Church. He closed virtually all abbeys and monasteries selling off the assets to fill his coffers.
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