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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 23, 2024 14:31:06 GMT -8
The translation I have is by Alexander Pope, which given Pope's life span, makes my translation fairly archaic. Then again, I wonder how much closer to the original is an 18th century translation to a 21st century translation. I suspect that Butler's AD1900 translation would be closer to Pope's language than something which came out today.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 25, 2024 8:06:10 GMT -8
Perhaps the first fifth or more of The Odyssey deals with Odysseus' son and the problems he is having with his mother's (Penelope's) "suitors," read: bums and ne'er-do-wells. Eventually Athene (this spelling has me constantly mispronouncing it in my head) prompts Telemachus (doesn't that name have a Norwegian feel to it?) to equip a boat and sail away to see if he can find information about his father, dead or alive. Meanwhile, the "suitors" plan to ambush and murder Telemachus when he returns. But in the meantime, Telemachus visits Pylos and Sparta. In Sparta he is treated quite hospitably (a very honored guest) by Menelaus and his wife, Helen. He learns about the exploits of his father in the Trojan campaign, filtered somewhat by Helen. Meanwhile Odysseus (who somehow really pissed off Poseidon) is far from home, shipwrecked on an island (Ogygia, probably Gozo in the Maltese archipelago), the only survivor of his fleet of ships (the other half which took a different course apparently got away). He is pretty much adopted by the goddess, Calypso, as his pet. After seven years, Athene (no longer pissed at Odysseus...I think she was at one point) pleads with Zeus to set him free. Zeus sends Mercury to tell Calypso she has to let him go. Calypso does so. Poseidon is not having any of it and causes Odysseus' raft to sink. A sea goddess helps him swim to an island (Drépané) which turns out to be modern Corfu where he basically goes from rags to riches. King Alcinous and Queen Arete hear his story and are quite taken with him. The King even asks him to say and marry his daughter. (I would have stayed.) It didn't hurt that Athene had cleaned him up, grew his hair out into curly locks, and overall just beautified his countenance. They give him gifts and promise a fully-crewed boat to take him wherever he wants. And that's pretty much where I've left it. Probably the star of the story so far is the Greek virtue of hospitality to a stranger. The story spends a lot of time describing this, with both Telemachus and Odysseus being the beneficiaries. Along the way we wonder Why did the Greeks Dilute Their Wine? They talk about this often. But apparently it wasn't about being thrifty.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 25, 2024 13:38:26 GMT -8
I suspect it had to do with health reasons. Drinking diluted wine allows the drinker to take in more water and keep hydrated. This was common in the Middle Ages. Children got diluted wine so as to avoid water-borne illnesses.
I also suspect that they diluted it due to taste. I can imagine that the quality of wine in those days left something to be desired.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 26, 2024 8:04:49 GMT -8
That makes a lot of sense. I had just wondered if, in conjunction with this, the wine they made was more condensed or distilled. Were they making a sort of wine syrup, for example? It doesn't seem so from what I've been able to find. Here's a bit from Wiki: That's very interesting, if true. That would mark them as a sort of sobriety culture to some extent. Certainly from the book I get no sense that diluting the wine had anything to do with thrift. It does seem to have a ceremonial aspect. So what I'm saying is that the watered-down beers, Miller Lite and Bud Light, are holy brews. We've gone past the Cyclops in the story. Past another couple of episodes of getting tossed at sea, barely reaching shore, getting some help, and then being sent on one's way again. Honestly, it would be thought of badly in most quarters to criticize a classic work such as this. I've often been told something like, "Brad, you're just trying to elevate yourself over the work." (Told this by people who, in all likelihood, are trying to elevate themselves by associating themselves with a classic...perhaps one they have never read.) But, really, I don't think that's it at all. It would be better to say that I am picky or not so easily amused. And about 40% into The Odyssey, the story has gone dull. It's repetitive. However, there was one twist that I liked very much. It was some time after landing on the island ruled by King Alcinous and Queen Arete. Odysseus and his men had moved on from there (perhaps with a Cyclops or two in between) and found themselves wrecked on another island. The invariably Good and Charitable Leader (especially after Odysseus invokes Zeus as the protector of travelers in need) will help Odysseus and his band. He will clean them up, feed them, give them some gifts and supplies, and send them on their way, perhaps in a new boat. Well, this happens (yet again). And, yet again, Poseidon causes Odysseus and his men to lose their boat or wash ashore, being blown away from their intended destination. And so this happens, and Odysseus (a few days, weeks, or months later, I'm not sure) washes up on the very same shore he just departed from, and tells his sob story yet again. The leader basically says, "Go away. You are cursed by the Gods." I mean, in all fairness, Odysseus and his men do seem to be somewhat of a plague wandering about. And, from my point of view, other than his physical prowess, Bill Clinton might have higher moral standards. But back then, as now, I'm not sure that personal moral standards mattered all the much in Great Leaders. They just had to forward the causes of the crowd or otherwise market themselves a saviors of a sort. Or have some kind of charisma that wallpapered over the defects. At this point (and after reading Stephen Fry's Troy), I'm not viewing Odysseus as the same worthy character played by Kirk Douglas in the movie. I think it likely that Poseidon has fair reason to be pissed off at him. And even the gods (especially Zeus) were never pleased with the wanton destruction that Odysseus and others wrought in Troy (and about everywhere else they go). It's a little disappointing, too, that there are no side-characters in this to add interest. A little variety. The people he meets all seem to talk the same. Everyone is extremely formal and treats Odysseus (who does seem to have some inherent charisma) as an honored guest wherever he goes (except for the Cyclops and some others). That is, the story is not particularly layered and rich. But there's much more to come and we'll see how that goes.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 26, 2024 9:47:32 GMT -8
I don't think so at all. Simply mouthing something is great because it is thought proper is silly. That said, I doubt we can truly judge the greatness of such works.
First, I am convinced a large part of the reason we venerate such classics is because they are somehow originals. Literally first of their kind. They become the benchmark from which we judge all else. From these works flow other works which expand the view of man and nature. Second, I am absolutely sure that much of the beauty and grandeur of such pieces are lost in translation. This is particularly the case when dealing in ancient tongues. Languages have a way of constantly changing. To go back to the original Greek of the Odyssey would be to tap into the origins of the language itself. To see it in its youth and power. I don't begin to believe that we can see it in this way as about 3,000 years of history has come between us.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 26, 2024 11:55:27 GMT -8
Quite possibly. As you know, I'm narrative-oriented, and character-oriented. If poetry is someone's thing (it's never been mine….tends to bore me...I usually find it pretentious in the extreme), then that could convey a beauty and grandeur over and above the actual elements of the story. Fair enough. Same with today's way over-done special effects in movies. It's the story and characters that count. But for many people, it's the style that counts, not the content.
I've still got a ways to go, of course, But I could see how it's certainly possible that there ain't all that much story there when you separate if from the dactylic hexameter (or often translated into iambic pentameter). I confess that such things are above me and beyond my interest.
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Post by kungfuzu on Nov 26, 2024 14:23:05 GMT -8
I admit that I have read only part of the Odyssey and have no desire to finish it. As with most things, I try to see it through historical eyes.
I understand the desire for good narrative and characters. What I believe we need to remember is that tales like the Odyssey and Iliad stand at the very beginning of the development of narrative and character in Western Civilization. As I recall, the origins of both go back to around 1200 B.C. and the actual writing took place around 800 B.C. i.e. long before the Torah was written.
Think of how primitive things were at the time. The writers were groping around in the dark, so to speak. They put together a continuous story, not just snippets of happenings here and there. I don't know of anything quite like this prior to that time. Maybe the Tale of Gilgamesh, but it is neither as long nor complete and it was pretty much unknown in the West until much later.
I see the Odyssey as an early view into the life of those cattle-stealing, cut-throat pirates from which Western Civilization partially arose. I admit that I never read it for entertainment.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 26, 2024 14:57:16 GMT -8
Yes, I think that's a good way to look at it.
The Odyssey is a campfire story raised to the level of great literature. I think, much like Shakespeare's work, it may have (in the oral retelling, perhaps around a blazing heart) appealed to the common man and was quite entertaining.
It contains helpful gods. Heroes. Villains. The rich. Some more rich (not too many poor depicted so far). Exotic voyages and places. Monsters. Angry gods. Men who live like gods and some gods (Athene, in this case) who seem to want to live like humans (for a time). And there are some characters in here who blur the line between man and god. (No, they are not Libertarians, as far as I know.)
Certainly many of the principals in this story have gods in their family tree. But the reader is never quite sure if some king or queen is immortal. Some are. They come outright and tell us. Before then, we wonder because of their riches and grandeur. And perhaps the reader is never quite sure if claims of being a god should be (or are meant to be) taken at face value, although that's a subtle point.
It must have been fascinating at the time to mix the divine and the mortal. I mean, what's one of the biggest businesses in film making today? It's the "Marvel Comic Universe." Obviously DC has its share of movies too. But guys, in particular (supposed adults) are really into this stuff.
That's not to say that The Odyssey is a comic book. The presentation is too formal for that. And yet the similarities seem obvious. And I do love a good adventure story, whether it's the old (certainly not the new) Star Wars or Kirk Douglas in Ulysses.
So, we'll keep plugging along and see what turns up. I haven't really been surprised by anything thus far like I was reading Troy. There was lots of stuff in the Troy legend that I'd never seen recounted in any movie. But nothing has quite surprised me yet with new information in The Odyssey. In fact, it's a bit of a run-on sentence at the moment. But I'm sure that new and interesting adventures are in store.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 27, 2024 8:06:54 GMT -8
I'm not really sure how far I am into The Odyssey (page 257 of 458). But Odysseus has made it home. I don't know if it will "stick," if he will be thrown out again and return. There are a lot of pages left unless this book has a very large appendix.
In a weird sequence (which I don't really see the point of), Odysseus travels to Hades to speak to a prophet. He gets instructions from him for how to complete his journey and also meets with the ghosts of many people, including ex companions on the Trojan campaign. He even meets with the "ghost" of Heracles even though they mention that Heracles is actually married, immortal, and living on Mt. Olympus.
And he meets with Agamemnon. Odysseus inquires of him "What happened after we sacked Troy?" Agamemnon tells him of his woes, about his wife and her lover killing him and his men at some banquet being held supposedly in their honor. Agamemnon warns Odysseus that, although his Penelope seems to be a good woman…
They couldn't vote back then either, although I don't think there was any voting by anyone in this more ancient Greece. Anyway, this little back-and-forth sets up the dramatic finish whereby a disguised Odysseus reveals himself and gives the "suitors" all that they deserve and more.
Odysseus, proving himself to be of dubious character, lies to the first person he meets in Ithaca (which happens to be Athene disguised as a young shepherd walking along the shore). He dispenses a bunch of baloney about who he is and what he's doing there (why?). Athene reveals herself and says:
Unwearying in deceit. That's a good one. She cuts him dry and yet doesn't lose affection for him because she already knows he's a lying sack of shit.
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