kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 16, 2019 15:02:46 GMT -8
I think one should take something like the millennial position here and never admit one made a mistake. In this case, I will maintain that to besiege a town one must first encircle it, also called looping. So in this case, they looped and pillaged a town.
I think that would earn an A from an adjunct professor at a modern Ivy League university.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 16, 2019 15:07:11 GMT -8
Well, "looped and pillaged" would mean that he went back and forth while pillaging. Probably attracted to every shiny bauble he saw. That's reasonable, isn't it? Well, to the extent that pillaging ever is.
The interesting thing about sacking besieged cities comes when you sack an occupied city, as in the British sack of Badajoz in 1811 or 1812 (I'm not sure of the precise timing). The Spanish residents there were mostly on their side (no doubt there were a few collaborators of the French). Tough luck.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 16, 2019 20:22:53 GMT -8
That's creative back-covering, Mr. Kung. I like it. It's a little loopy but it works.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 17, 2019 7:50:02 GMT -8
The torpedo (1) has hit. The ship is sinking fast. Thirty seconds after the enormous explosion of the torpedo, another explosion occurred internally which seems to be a low rumble from the bowels of the entire ship.
Hatches left open. Warnings ignored. Alternative means to Liverpool ignored (through the north channel). No instruction in the use of life jackets. No practice at the life boats. No Royal Navy escort by destroyers. And at the last minute, the ship took a fortuitous turn right into the path of the u-boat…a turn that captain of the u-boat noted was the one he would have chosen to get the best shot.
Good fortune did not smile on the Lusitania.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 19, 2019 8:10:42 GMT -8
I finished “Dead Wake” yesterday. Although I recommend two or three other books by the author, this isn’t one of them. Most of his books are about a confluence of events: The Chicago World’s Fair and a serial killer, for example. It helps to break the story up and give you more history. In “The Dead Wake,” we get little of that. We could have followed the building of the Lusitania as a backstory. Or the development of the u-boat. Or even more on the history of luxury passenger liners. Instead we get just glimpses of some of those things sometimes. Mostly we are inundated with trivial facts about the passengers. To the extent that this gives us a glimpse (as it sometimes does) of what existing on a luxury liner was like, that’s all good. But too often it is a great bore. It does finally finish well with a blow-by-blow account of the sinking which happened in 18 minutes. Even this fact is skimmed over. It’s remarkable that such a ship could sink so fast. In fact, it is the prime fact of the incident. And yet in the end we’re left guessing about the reason for that. For example, Larson gave an account of another much smaller ship that sank at the time. It took two torpedoes to do so, and even then it took many hours. The torpedo is said to have cause a great horizontal gash across the hull. Why? The secondary explosion (likely to a high-pressure steam line rupturing) has little forensic evidence explained in regards to how that contributed to the quickness of the sinking. The boat just went down fast. Period. Sadly, in the end, Captain Turner was still insisting he did everything possible. Clearly this is not the case. Clearly exactly no one (but a few passengers….one who had earlier pleaded with the captain, with some small success, to allow him to lead some preparedness exercises regarding the life vests) did even remotely all that was possible. The passengers were lambs to the slaughter. I think Larson’s innate namby-pambiness prevents him from calling a spade a spade. There are no good guys here. The worse guys are the Germans. But even they gave fair warning in published ads in the newspaper. How often does an enemy do that for you? Eighteen minutes and passengers who are mostly on board for a luxury cruise are a bad combination for survival. Few knew what to do. Had they simply covered themselves in grease, donned a life jacked, and jumped overboard and swam away from the sinking ship, they may have survived quite nicely. The weather was incredibly calm and mild. And in this case, (for whatever reason — again, not explained) there was no danger from being sucked down by the ship. But the main danger seemed to be stuff falling on people from the upper decks. So getting away from the sinking ship was an imperative. The lifeboats were so badly managed, they killed many people in attempts to launch them. Any kind of grease (or just multiple layers of clothing) would deal with hypothermia. Strangely, because it was certainly on the minds of the British Admiralty to draw America into the war, they immediately went to work trying to disgrace Captain Turner. The author I think rightly put this down to the Admiralty trying to deflect blame from itself. There were destroyers sitting idle in Queenstown (now Cobh) Ireland as the Lusitania passed. Churchill himself apparently lied his way through this, insisting that the Lusitania had taken two torpedoes, for example, when via intelligence he knew that the Germans had used only one. He was sacked and rightly so. He dismissed the incident with the words that the British Navy couldn't possible protect commercial shipping. This was disingenuous since at that point the Admiralty was all but in charge of commercial ships. More about the ongoing war would have benefited this book. But finally at the end we do run into why the Germans (after Lusitania) escalated their attacks on neutral shipping. They had (someone had) a six-month plan that was guaranteed to bring the British to their knees. Ironically, the British were already losing ships at an unsustainable rate. One out of four ships leaving a British port would be sunk. At the time of the Lusitania, they had but a few tens of u-boats. Soon they had a hundred. But by baiting the Americans in the war with the German policy of unrestricted war on neutral shipping (and a careless attempt to try to get Mexico to enter the war as an ally), Wilson was soon sending destroyers to Britain, which is exactly what they needed and it saved their bacon. Perhaps Larson understand that most men do not read now. They are too busy playing video games. Much of this book seems written as if women are the market. There is far too much gossip about the onboard characters. Some of it was fine but there was just far too much of it. A dozen other things might have been emphasized instead of it. So in the end, I can’t recommend this book. Bu the same token, it’s certainly not horrible.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 19, 2019 9:07:14 GMT -8
How many torpedoes are needed to sink a ship varies. Otto Kretschmer, the greatest U-boat ace of World War II (though not as famous as Gunther Prien, who sank the Royal Oak in Scapa Flow), once needed several to sink a single merchant ship carrying timber because the cargo was so light. But later, attacking convoys, he made a principle of "one ship, one torpedo", which enabled him to sink so many ships. (In the spring of 1941, Kretschmer, Prien, and another leading U-boat ace were taken out. Kretschmer was able to surface before the ship sank, so he and his crew survived. Prien and the other didn't, which was the common fate for U-boat commanders during the war. One of the top US sub commanders only sank 2 ships, but then one of them was the Shinano.)
A one-hour Twilight Zone episode, "No Time Like the Past", featured a time-traveler trying to change history. He first tried to get Hiroshima evacuated just before the bomb hits (which was too late even if they had taken him seriously), his second try was to assassinate Hitler (the maid comes into his hotel room at just the wrong moment), and the third was to persuade the Lusitania to turn aside at the last moment. He then tries to escape into the past and finds out that even that doesn't exactly work.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 19, 2019 9:34:34 GMT -8
The United States declared war on Germany on April 5, 1917. The Lusitania was sunk on May 7, 1915. If you had quizzed me before reading this book, I would have said the the United State quickly declared war after the sinking of the Lusitania. But now I see that wasn’t so. The sinking of the Lusitania was a contributing factor but not the deciding factor. The deciding factor was Germany basically declaring war on the world’s shipping. Wilson phrased it as “Making the world safe for democracy.” There was certainly a lot of truth in that. We do get some interesting details on submarine warfare. At the time, the odds of a German torpedo actually working was about 40%. Even then, if you can steer the target ship so that the torpedo strikes only a glancing blow, your odds are much better in not receiving a fatal blow. The captain of the U-20 that sank the Lusitania had a policy (it might not have just been his own) to always run at a depth below however far the keel of the largest surface ship could reach. The soundness of this approach was confirmed when a British war ship of some type ran directly above him at one point in the sub’s patrol in and around Ireland. The Germans had various kinds of torpedoes. They used some kind of gyroscopic one and it worked. The book also says that it’s doubtful that the on board munitions could have had anything to do with the second explosion. Subsequent tests of the gun ammunition in crates confirmed that the ammunition does not explode. I don’t know if divers have been able to determine via the wreckage just what the second explosion was. But the consensus seems to be that it was the one that brought the ship down so quickly. Here’s someone’s animation of the event: A Real Time Sinking Animation
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Post by timothylane on Aug 19, 2019 10:01:23 GMT -8
I remember my brother working on a paper on the subject of submarine warfare and the US during World War I. A year after the sinking of the Lusitania, the Germans sank a channel transport, the Sussex. There were 4 Americans among the dead, and Wilson was angry (by then, the anglophile Lansing had replaced the pacifist Bryan as Secretary of State), resulting in the Sussex Pledge by Germany -- they wouldn't engage in unrestricted submarine warfare. Their 1917 decision violated this, which is why (anticipating that Wilson would declare war) the Germans sent the Zimmerman Telegram hoping for assistance. Ironically, that may have made the difference in sending the US to war.
During both wars, the Germans had problems with unreliable torpedoes. Many U-boat commanders relied on deck guns, which required surfacing. (This is why Q-ships could be effective against them.) During World War II, they finally got some working torpedoes -- from a captured British submarine. Karl Doenitz was very angry at German torpedo designers. (Part of the problem is that the conditions aboard a U-boat tended to have a very deleterious effect on them, which the designers failed to allow for.) They weren't alone; US torpedoes were unreliable until 1943, which no doubt saved a lot of Japanese ships.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 19, 2019 11:05:46 GMT -8
Larson mentions the Q-ships. I would have rather learned a bit more about them and less about some of the minutia of the Lusitania passengers. Further reading online about the Lusitania suggests that Larson didn't do a good job of giving even an overall picture. But you do get a lot of history in this. But did I really need to read about President Wilson's schoolboy love affair? Like I said, at this point it seems Larson had aimed this book toward women. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But it's funny to me that it's so obvious.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 19, 2019 11:13:59 GMT -8
While we’re on the general subject of ships in the sea, I came across an interesting video: The Battle of Midway 1942: Told from the Japanese PerspectiveThey’re planning a new movie about Midway, right? Well, I love the old one. But after watching this video, I have renewed tolerance for the often confusing plot in that movie. The fact was, there was no easy way to present the difficulties of that battle for the Japanese. Thankfully, this video slows things down and goes into more detail. (And a part 2 is apparently still in the works.) Long story short, despite wave after wave of American planes (from both Midway and the American carriers) having been shot down without so much as scratching the decks of the Japanese carriers (while losing very few Zeros in defense), these attacks kept Nagumo from launching an offensive strike against what he eventually understood had to be at least one American carrier. Really a terrific presentation from this kid. One commenter (brilliant in his succinctness) writes: Yeah. I would say so. Assuming his facts are right, of course. One commenter says his facts are spot-on.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 19, 2019 11:42:54 GMT -8
Usually, the German merchant raiders such as Atlantis weren't referred to as Q-ships, though my brother had a model of it which referred to it that way. Some books seem to differentiate between the auxiliary cruisers of the Germans (one of which, Kormoran, sank the Australian light cruiser Sydney with all hands, though it was fatally damaged in return) and the armed merchant cruisers of the British (which weren't Q-ships because they were openly armed).
One of the most important sinkings by the Atlantis (which was the subject of the movie Under Ten Flags and gained as gallant a reputation in World War II as the regular light cruiser Emden did in World War I) was the Automedon, which carried several bags of secret dispatches for the British possessions in the Far East, which were sent to the Japanese in time to assist their war planning.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 19, 2019 11:51:19 GMT -8
The repeated (and disastrous) US attacks (mostly by torpedo planes) also had the effect of focusing their attention on them as the dive bombers were about to strike. All those Japanese fighters were at low level, and their AA aimed in that direction. That's what a lack of radar can do for you. On the other hand, radar can be mistaken (cf. the Battle of the Pips in 1943), or useless if ignored (which is what enabled Admiral Mikawa to surprise the American heavy cruisers at Savo Island, sinking 4 of the 5 he encountered.
The most famous of these attacks at Midway was by Torpedo 8, of which a single crew member survived from 8 planes. He had a perfect view of the destruction of the Japanese carriers -- which proved useful when he was picked up and sent to Pearl Harbor to provide Nimitz with his first report on Spruance's victory. (There was a presentation on him at the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, TX when we visited it.)
One might note that the Battle of Midway reversed in about 6 minutes. The Japanese had smashed every attack and were about to (finally) launch against the US carriers. Then, moments later, the Dauntless dive bombers came screaming down just as one Japanese plane was taking off. Three of the Japanese carriers were quickly wrecked (the Hiryu was a little apart and escaped this attack, managing to get off 2 attacks which crippled the Yorktown before the Dauntlesses got to it).
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 19, 2019 14:38:45 GMT -8
Herman Wouk included a beautiful description of this attack in his "Winds of War" or "War and Remembrance." He writes how the pilots knew they were doomed, but kept attacking if for no other reason than their sacrifices might draw off Japanese fire and help others get through. They exemplified "duty, honor, country."
He then puts a wonderful thought in the minds of the Japanese who saw this happen, which went something like, "These American pilots know they are doomed yet they keep coming and are willing to sacrifice their lives for their country just like we Japanese are. This is not what we had been led to believe about them. Perhaps we have make a mistake and underestimated their resolve."
I remember having a very strong emotion when I read that.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 19, 2019 15:36:25 GMT -8
I just watched the video on the Battle of Midway. Very well done, especially for someone who sounds like a young kid. I couldn't quite tell where he was from. It sounded like he might have been a Japanese or Chinese guy who had come to the USA or been educated in American schools.
I especially liked his mention of the Thach Weave. This saved many American lives during the war.
For anyone interested in Midway, I can suggest:
Gordon Prange wrote this as well as the more famous, "At Dawn We Slept" which details the Pearl Harbor attack.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 19, 2019 15:44:57 GMT -8
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Post by timothylane on Aug 19, 2019 16:33:48 GMT -8
I read Prange's books way back when, and can second your recommendation.
The Thach weave was first used at Midway, but in fact Thach starting working on it before the war began. He anticipated that it was about to begin, and apparently paid attention to the capabilities of the Zero aka A6M aka Zeke (the last was an Allied code name, the first 2 different Japanese designations). It was based largely on the German "finger-four" system, but with (I think) additional refinements. The point was that when an enemy fighter targeted any of the planes, they would all loop around to take it out. With it, losses were about even between Zeros and Wildcats even though the former was the better fighter (except when it comes to protection, always a Japanese deficiency due to their limited resources). Anything that discusses it can be considered most impressive.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 19, 2019 19:28:53 GMT -8
The Coral Sea video was also good.
Here is some info on Prangle's most famous book. I believe it is considered the best study of the Pearl Harbor Attack yet written for the public.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 19, 2019 19:52:43 GMT -8
I don't know exactly why, butI thought you linked to this one.
I enjoyed it very much, but it was not a patch on this one.
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Post by timothylane on Aug 19, 2019 20:53:35 GMT -8
I remember both 1970s movies, Tora, Tora, Tora and Midway. Both treated the Japanese fairly. Neither is a documentary, but as historical movies they follow the history well. A Night to Remember is a similar case, about the sinking of the Titanic.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 21, 2019 8:04:53 GMT -8
Yes. A great example of someone doing what I always thought StubbornThings could be: A way to get one’s history and politics in condensed and understandable form while maintaining accuracy. Easier said then done. It’s much much easier to just bitch bitch bitch and pretend its Shakespeare. But I do see this Montemayor guy as a fine example of what can be done. My astonishment at his two presentations (he obviously has done more) is in the context of the media (right or left) which tends to have a very high percentage of noise compared to signal. Here we can learn something without a lot of baloney and ego. Here’s what you could call the sequel to his Midway presentation: Battle of Savo Island 1942: America’s Worst Naval Defeat. It’s quite a bold and well-executed attack by the Japanese against an American force that was apparently out to lunch for reasons unknown.
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