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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 29, 2023 19:59:06 GMT -8
No there really were cowboys, although the period in which they were created and flourished was probably only about 20-or-so years, from shortly after the end of the Civil War until about 1890. During this time, millions of cows were herded/driven along various famous trails such as the Goodnight-Loving and Chisholm Trails to different rail heads for transport to large slaughterhouses. Once the railroads expanded south and someone invented the refridgerated railcar, the days of the old cowboys were numbered. There are still some descendants of the old cowboy, but they are few. The forefathers of the American cowboy were the Mexican Vaqueros.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 29, 2023 20:17:06 GMT -8
I have seen several of this guy's videos and he is an excellent musician. I can't disagree with what he says. I would probably take it further than he does.
Recording has always been a two-edged sword for music. The more sophisticated the electronics got, the less it had to do with music and the more with technology. This is one reason people are sometimes surprised at the difference between a live performance and a studio recording. Few popular musicians are as good live as they are on vinyl. Sinatra is probably one of them.
It was pretty clear that Meryl Streep's recording was not genuine. It sounded to clean, controlled. It reminded me of a cut-rate Barbara Streisand. Streisand has the vocal control and ear to sing in such a way if she wants, but she also has the control and talent to add a little something to her tones. The ear works differently than a computer.
One must understand that notes are not pure. There are quarter tones, eighth tones and so forth. I could hear quarter tone differences (maybe even eighth tone) and always found slightly sharp tones to be more pleasing and less noticeably off that slightly flat tones. In fact, I sometimes liked them better. I therefore generally tended to sing a bit sharp. Because I had a reasonably good vibrato, the actual tone of would vary slightly with the vibrato.
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Post by artraveler on Aug 29, 2023 20:17:22 GMT -8
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 6:25:05 GMT -8
Of course, I'm quite aware of that. I mean the romanticized version of the John Wayne cowboy has probably overpowered in the popular imagination the gritty reality, although there have been more than a few movies that showed the dirty, smelly, low-pay, hard-work, dispensable nature of the job.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 6:32:14 GMT -8
Well, that pretty well sums up where we are. We'll see if there starts a movement among those who supposedly love all things "natural" to support and demand real singers instead of doctored ones. Given the level in our culture of ingrained fakery, I'm not counting on it. Still, it's nice to see someone comment on the fakery.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 7:35:31 GMT -8
Fil is also impressed with The Andrews Sisters. No autotune needed. I'm also impressed that this guy recognized that there was quality before he was even born. That's revolutionary thinking, right there. He probably should note in his description they are The Andrews Sisters (not The Andrew Sisters).
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 8:31:39 GMT -8
Who is this fool? He even gives a disclaimer before this cover of a Journey song that: "I don't use backing tacks. Everything you are about to hear is played and sung by me."
No, he's not going to put Steve Perry out of work. But not bad. And why didn't he get the "go fake at all costs if it makes money" gene? I don't know.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 8:42:31 GMT -8
I knew you knew, but wanted a little clarification. That said, I would guess that were some points of the "cowboy" character which writers and even movie makers built upon. Once "art" got involved, there was no way objective truth or observation would take the forefront. This goes back to the discussion we have had on literature being "lies." I can't remember which famous novelist said that, but I agree with him. It takes broad sweeps of history, slow developing characters and compresses them into short periods of time and action which distort the truth. That doesn't mean such things can't be entertaining, but they are not a place to get the "truth" from. By the way, much of the rest of the world is also enamored of the American West and cowboys. Of course, they are further separated from the place and people than we are. Don't forget the "Noble Savage" myth that preceded the cowboys myth.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 9:00:37 GMT -8
As I said, I believe Fil is an excellent musician.
Interesting choice of songs. Flu Jr. loves that piece. He gets excited every time he hears it.
You might have noted that Fil lowered it a key or two so as to be able to sing along. If you listen to the following video, you will hear the difference. Steve Perry was amazing. And his performance demonstrates why good singers can be so important in/to a band. A middle C sung sounds very different from a middle C on a guitar or piano.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 9:41:08 GMT -8
Normally you can't just aim a camera at real life and have anything that anyone would want to sit down for an hour and a half and pay for the privilege of watching. So movies inherently romanticize and spice things up – or do the reverse and make them "gritty" – probably in many cases far harsher than the reality...even though they purport to show the "real" cowboy or whatever. You know all this too. That said, I think elements of Red River seem authentic. Robert Duvall''s Lonesome Dove series also seems to let a lot of reality in. I would suppose that the life of a cowboy was hot and dusty. He worked hard for probably somewhat meager wages. He endured danger and hardships and probably more than his share of monotony. The food was probably bad and you were thrown into the company of other stragglers. I wouldn't image that sitting around the campfire was like a meeting of the shoemakers of Philadelphia. It must have been a fairly grungy and uncouth bunch. Did they typically take most of their wages and blow them all on gambling and hookers in the nearest town? I don't know. Certainly some must have. Others may well have been saving up for buying a place of their own. Who's this fella? Here is one person's opinion on the most historically accurate Western. Interesting that Young Guns is on the list. Like others, I figured this was just a vehicle for The Brat Pack. I've never seen it.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 9:49:54 GMT -8
Yeah, I suppose so, now that you mention it. I would have had to turn down the original to avoid breaking the windows. This next one is live. Let's suppose this is the real him. Dedicated to Flu Jr.:
Probably a once-in-a-generation voice. Not a yuge fan of Journey, per se. But I could be. There was just so much music going on. You had to pick your spots.
To sing live, in concert, on a tour – when you certainly can't be at your best because you're probably tired and your voice has been used up, and the acoustics are god-knows-what – and to do it well...I don't know what to say. It's beyond my experience. This is pretty impressive.
As one commenter noted:
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 9:56:20 GMT -8
You are making my point for me. Once you go about selling "real life," there is a big chance that some sort of falsehood is involved. Another reason I advise people not to get their history from films or TV. One must also be careful with novels, but as a medium they give the author a better opportunity to approach the truth if he wants to.
My father loved reading magazines about the Old West. As to the films involved, I would first note that some of them had nothing to do with the "West" as we think of it. Even fewer had to do with "cowboys" and their culture. The films mentioned cover something like a span of 130 years, or so, of American history. I have seen many of them, but not most.
Wasn't the Duke a strong-looking young man. You don't generally think of him as handsome, but he was when he was young.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 9:59:32 GMT -8
I will defer to Flu Jr. as to the quality of this. Does it slow it down so much that it loses that core energy by turning the song into a crooner? But I thought it was an imaginatively different cover of it.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 10:10:49 GMT -8
While taking voice lessons in college, I was told that it was not uncommon for some opera singers to rest their voices two hours for every one hour they performed. So if they sang a two-hour opera, they would not speak for four hours afterwards. Made it hard on those who wanted to attend the wine and cheese party after the opera was over. Believe me, if one is a serious singer, one pays attention to all sorts of things that others don't. Humidity, or lack thereof, dust, pollen, allergies, pollution, perfumes, avoid dairy products as they cause mucus, and on and on. You don't exercise too much as your don't want to sweat a lot and catch a cold. You avoid big changes in temperature which can effect your voice. Lyric tenors are probably the most notorious for this behavior. The bit about exercise is one reason so many classical singers are fat.
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Post by artraveler on Aug 30, 2023 10:27:26 GMT -8
I would suppose that the life of a cowboy was hot and dusty. Caring for cows is all of the above plus the often gross work of veterinarian work can be even worse. Cowboy movies don't ever go there. I believe I posted this on ST several years ago. I think it still has value Myth of the West In 1893 Fredrick Jackson Turner stated in his paper “The Significance of the Frontier in American History”, that not only was the finite frontier closed but Americans might need to find a replacement. Since then, historians, authors of both fiction and non-fiction, playwrights, musicians and movie makers have sought to enlarge and explain the mythos of the American west. The west, Turner says is closed, lives on in our shared American conscience. A question we ask our collective self is how does our nation grow and expand without creating an empire without a good answer? Other countries and empires emeritus tend to view the US as more or less valuable empire, but nonetheless an empire. Travel to any part of the world, make known that you’re an American, as if you could actually fool someone that you’re not, and in the space of a conversation the cowboy will come up. As a derogative or in admiration. Turner was talking about the realities of the fixed frontier. The formation of states, often by less than democratic process, but resulting in alignment with constitutional requirements. With the official separation of the LDS church from polygamy, a notably theocratic state, Utah, was admitted to the union in 1896. In Turner’s America, there was a lot of room for differing styles of state governance. Rather than deal with Turner, the pros, and cons of his thesis; I would like to argue the west as myth and its importance. One of the first authors to help create the mythos of the west has to be James Fenimore Cooper with, The Leatherstocking Tales. Writing about the American version of the French and Indian War (1755-1763). Cooper describes unique American traits in fiction years before Tocqueville wandered through on his grand tour. Although, Cooper and Tocqueville lived at about the same time. Each chronicled what they saw in America in fiction and fact. Hawkeye is the quintessential American, strong of character, independent and in his own words, “subject to no man”. On the intellectual side, Perry Miller a contemporary of Turner, discusses in “The New England Mind, and Errand in the Wilderness, the growth of New England Puritanism and writes on the growth of independence, in the colony, and the efforts to spread Christianity to the Indians of Massachusetts. Miller is perplexed by how the Puritans transformed into transcendentalists and subsequently into Unitarians. However, even these worthies just by leaving England and separating from the English Church exemplify the ideals of what would later be the code of the west. Building on the example of Cooper and other authors like Zane Grey they set down and elaborated the code of the west; Vardis Fisher and Raymond Thorp’s books, Mountain Man (1920) and Crow Killer (1959) merge into a single movie, Jerimiah Johnson (1972) produced by and starring Robert Redford. The movie spins off of the real life of John Johnson and his personal war with the Sioux into an American legend. Redford may not agree, but if you could get our enemies to watch Jerimiah Johnson and assure them this is the character of the average American, peace would be just around the corner. Although, nearly 200 years separate them, Chris Kyle and John Johnson are examples of the men this country produces. Be afraid, very, very afraid if they are coming after you. On a demographic basis, the early settlers of the west were largely male, up to 90% in some mining camps. Of course, all of the military units were male. The presence of a commander’s wife or daughter on a post or fort was rare. Since most of the men were of the “worst” type, most of the women that traveled west were of the same. The men were young, looking for adventure, drunkards, gamblers, pimps, thieves, murderers, and the women they wanted were of similar bent. Many a grandmother of the pioneers got her start in the west working in a saloon or bordello and conveniently forgot that part of her personal history when marrying a customer and moving to the city. Josephine Marcus married Wyatt Earp after leaving Arizona. Trivia fact Wyatt Earp is buried with Josie in a Jewish cemetery in Coloma CA. The author Louis L’Amour, (1908-1988), born in N. Dakota is a shaper of the western myth and code of the west. His novels and short stories covering the settlement of the west from the early arrivals of the Sackett family into the modern west. So many of his stories were incorporated into movies and television that almost no western in the last 50 years does not, in some way pay homage to his talent. The John Wayne movie Hondo is but one example of a L’Amour work on the screen. Back to fiction and myth. In 1951 Lerner and Lowe produced for Broadway a musical called, Paint Your Wagon. In 1969 the film version was produced with additional screenplay by Patty Chayefsky. The movie is mostly good fun, although there are some subthemes worthy of exploration. Set in a gold rush mining camp, no name city, has no law but mining law, and is an endless collection of saloons, brothels and opium dens. All set to extract as much from the miners as possible. It is even possible for a Mormon with two wives to sell one off and for that wife to then marry two men. However, the music, in the movie performed by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band that makes the movie. From the opening overture of I’m On My Way to Clint Eastwood singing, I Talk to The Trees, and the best known, They Call the Wind Maria. An inside joke, in Hebrew Mariah can be translated as bitter. Then there is, Wand’rin’ Star and if Eastwood singing is a peculiarity, then Lee Marvin, as Ben Rumson, singing is a phenomenon to behold. Nevertheless, the character of Ben Rumson is the more interesting. I have little doubt that if you dig into the ancestry of many pioneer families you will find a grandfather like Ben Rumson. A man unknown to history, perhaps not even to his own descendants, certainly not an E B Crocker or John Stanford. Ben Rumson and his cronies traveled the west, building roads and towns, laying track and stringing telegraph wire and they moved on, as they always did, from one gold or silver strike to the next. California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and Alaska, the roads they built are littered with their unmarked graves. Paint Your Wagon is just one of several musicals that present an ideal of the American west, Oklahoma, 7 brides for 7 brothers and Showboat among others. However, we always seem to come back to movies. Almost from the first time a motion picture was made it was the classic American western, The Great Train Robbery (1903). A silent movie with bad guys, good guys and a shootout. Who could ask for more? This was the style for the next 36 years. Then in 1939, overshadowed by the world blockbuster, Gone with The Wind, a movie that created a legend of its own. John Ford cast a young actor Marion Morrison (John Wayne) who had made a lot of B movies in Stagecoach. Stagecoach could truly be viewed as the real beginning of Wayne’s acting career and over the next 40 years until his last movie, The Shootist, Wayne set the model of the western hero. Along with John Ford as director they made a list of timeless movies: The Searchers, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, The Horse Soldiers, Rio Grande, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon. When we think of the west and the men and women who settled it our visual is the Duke on horseback with the mittens of Monument Valley in the shot. We cannot help it by now it is part of our cultural DNA. The B and C movies, second features from the 30s and 40s made the transition to radio and then into television. Roy Rogers, hop along Cassidy, The Lone Ranger and others moved from successful radio programs to the new home entertainment medium. In the 50s and 60s we got an assortment of westerns, Wagon Train, Rawhide, The Big Valley, The Virginian, The Rifleman and the much-loved Bonanza and the moralistic Have gun, Will travel. All of them with strong independent characters, male and female. Have Gun was a 30-minute ethics play of a knight errant dispensing justice, often in conflict with local law enforcement. Modern westerns take advantage of this emotional image. Westworld, an HBO series is largely filmed in and around Monument Valley, and the demarcation between black hat and white hats is still the fastest method to tell who a good guy is and who isn’t. The western style has now progressed beyond the west. A single western franchise covering over 50 years, the first and most famous is the television and movie franchise of Star Trek, an example of the western transiting into space. Additionally, just like in the 30s with the same easy to identify characters, shootouts, chases and iconic good and bad guys is the more modern western Star Wars. An interesting new western is the Dark Knight Batman Movies Directed by Christopher Nolan and starring Christopher Bale. If the Duke were alive, he would recognize this Batman as a true western in the Ford/Wayne tradition. It could be argued that the Dark Knight is just a remake of High Noon. The American west has grown far beyond the limits that Turner opined about in the 1890s. It has been absorbed as a part of our human condition. Yet it remains a distinctive American genre. It twists and turns to fit generations but surely, hundreds of years from now on some far-off planet, there will still be stagecoaches rolling.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 11:14:22 GMT -8
Your piece made me think of this book review which I wrote for ST.
Book Review: "The Virginian" by Owen Wister
Thu, 20 Jul 2017
by Kung Fu Zu 7/20/17
For those of a certain age, The Virginian will bring to mind the TV series starring James Drury as the
Virginian and Doug McClure as Trampas. Being of that age, I remember the series well, but I did not know it was loosely based on an actual novel. I was not a great fan of the series, but I did not let that stop me from exploring its inspiration.
The novel begins with a young unnamed Easterner sitting on a train as it approaches his destination of Medicine Bow, Wyoming. He has been invited by Judge Henry to visit Henry’s spread, Sunk Creek, and see something of the West. After arriving at the station, the Easterner is doubly disappointed since the judge, who was supposed to meet him, is nowhere to been seen. Even worse the Greenhorn’s trunk was not unloaded from the train. Without belongings, and a stranger in a strange place, the Easterner is somewhat irritated wondering what he will do, when a tall handsome young man with jet black hair says to him, “I reckon I am looking for you, seh.” Thus we are introduced to the Virginian, whose real name we never learn.
The Virginian hands the Easterner, who also remains nameless, a letter from the judge apologizing for his absence and letting him know that the dark haired man is one of his best and can be trusted. Hearing the Sunk Creek spread is over two hundred miles away, he and the Virginian have no choice but to stay in Medicine Bow until the lost trunk shows up.
During this overnight stay, the Greenhorn is introduced to the rawness of Wyoming in the early 1880’s. As he observes the scene, he is somewhat surprised to hear the cowboys addressing each other with curse words. He is shocked when some of them, laughingly, call the Virginian “son-of-a-bitch.” This does not appear to bother the Virginian one jot until, over a card game, one cowpuncher named Trampas says, “Your bet, you son-of-a-bitch” in a tone completely different from that which the other cowboys had been using. Upon hearing this, the Virginian pulls his pistol, and softly speaks those immortal words, “When you call me that, SMILE.” In how many cowboys films have we all heard, “Smile when you say that”?
In this initial scene in Medicine Bow, we have the beginnings of two of the main themes of the book. The first is the growth of a strong friendship between the Greenhorn and the Virginian. The second is the fateful enmity which grows between the Virginian and Trampas. These are intertwined and expanded as the book goes on.
The third theme, which starts a few chapters later, is that of the love between a man and a woman. In this case, the woman is Molly, who comes from a well respected family of Vermont. She has been brought up in a genteel fashion, but clearly does not wish to abide by all the rules which applied to a woman of her place and time. I think she would have made a good Suffragette. In this relationship, there is not only the man and woman story, but there is also a touch of East meets West. While these three themes are interesting, the over-arching theme is that of a man’s place in a harsh uncivilized place and how one chooses to handle oneself in a world without the thin veneer of polite society.
The book, written in 1902, is considered the first true Western novel. And yet, I would say it is much more than a “Western” novel. No doubt, there is some intense action. But it is more than a “shoot-em-up” take on gun fights and cattle rustling. There is nothing phony about this story. What the novel is, is a wonderful study of characters; particularly of a type of heroic man. The Virginian is not some cardboard cutout of a cowboy. He is a feeling, thinking and acting human being. A laconic uncomplaining young man, who left home at the age of fourteen and traveled the West until deciding to stay put in Wyoming. He is no fool. At the age of twenty-three, he has learned some of life’s hard lessons, but has not come out bad. He has a code of honor, harsh though it may be. Tough but fair with men, he is the type who would protect women and children. He is the epitome of “still waters run deep.”
If the contents of this book are any indication, Wister was a keen observer of human nature. Through the Virginian and others, he makes a number of very sophisticated remarks in plain language. He also shows how small things such as a glance, a card game, one loosely spoken word can grow to very large, even fateful things, in the future.
An example of Wister’s insight is the beginning of chapter XII, which starts with the following sentence: “There can be no doubt of this: All America is divided into two classes, -the quality and the equality. The latter will always recognize the former when mistaken for it. Both will be with us until our women bear nothing but kings.”
Another solid observation he makes is one by the Virginian, who when talking about a rather pitiful cowboy and the unfairness of life, says: “It may be that them whose pleasure bring yu’ into this world owes yu’ a living. But that don’t make the world responsible. The world did not beget you. I reckon man helps them that helps themselves. As for the universe, it looks like it did too wholesale a business to turn out an article up to standard every clip”.
There are many more such observations in the book, but it would probably take dozens of pages to do them justice. Much of what they show is that human nature is constant and not much has changed in this regard over the last hundred years.
This is the best book I have read in years. It is honest, does not use tricks and such to keep the reader’s interest. It has some action, but it is basically a study of human nature, specifically the nature of a strong man who tries to be just and honest. He is not a saint, but is of the world. He tries to stay on a straight path and still be a man, not a wimp or coward. He is constantly trying to be better, but remains true to himself and his code while doing so.
A similar novel could be written about the knights of old, but Wyoming would seem to be the perfect canvas for Wister’s masterpiece, “The Virginian.”
Read it.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 11:32:30 GMT -8
No doubt the singer and band are technically very competent. I especially liked the clarinet as lead guitar. Yet somehow, the rendition did not feel right. It lacked force. One didn't want to get up and move with the beat. The strong overtones of sex and loneliness, the yearning were missing. The emotion of Perry's version was missing. I found it somewhat like a folk song, broadcasting a completely different feeling than the original. Since music is all about feeling this is important. I got something of a melancholy feeling from this version. This version was also in a lower key than the original. I believe that might have something to do with the lack of urgency in the performance. Real first tenors like Perry are not so common. Let me give you an idea of what I am talking about. Click on the link and find the video which says "Pour mon ame-Pavoratti." At the top of the video is written "Luciano Pavoratti- Ah mes amis Pavoratti live at the Met 1972" Listen to Pavoratti sing for a few seconds. This will give you a general idea of his voice. Then go to the 1:00 minute mark and listen to him singing a High C. That is a real first tenor singing. I only saw Pavoratti live once. That would have been the later half of 1971 or first half of 1972, i.e. the time this recording was made. I thought then, and still think, that his voice was a bit thin. I personally only hit this note a few times while singing. But the B below the High C was not a problem. B flat aka A sharp was a piece of cake. That is how the voice works. Psychology plays its part as well. Here is my favorite tenor. My voice professor told me that my voice reminded him of Bjorling's.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 17:28:32 GMT -8
That's an interesting read, Artler. I'll have to give Jeremiah Johnson another viewing...at least I think I have seen it before. I'm not sure.
I don't know to what extent the series, Deadwood, is authentic. But it certainly has that vibe.
And, yes, the stamp that Louis L'Amour put on the mythical West is yuge.
And I'll have to watch Paint Your Wagon if I can find it. Again, I can't remember if I've seen it.
Yep. However, whether the classic Western is still relevant to today's younger audiences is a good question. Will the generations who masked themselves (not as bad guys but as bubble-boys) be attracted to stories of daring, self-reliance, and good-vs-evil? I have my doubts.
But a Renaissance of American values is certainly possible, for you would suppose that people will eventually figure out that Progressivism/Leftism is a false religion that offers nothing but despair. John Wayne offers the path to being a hero by fighting real (not imagined) bad guys. This is arguable several steps above the idea of a some transgender nut being a "hero" for having his balls chopped of and calling himself Clementine.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 18:10:31 GMT -8
Yep. As a novelty, I thought it was interesting. But in this version, the song was taken over by the singer. He was "stylin'" to such an extent, the music itself was secondary, and he certainly didn't mesh with the tune. It was never something emerging that was bigger than the sum of the parts.
It's like one of those singers (often black, but not always) who do some "stylin'" when they sing what is arguably the National Anthem, although it is often barely recognizable as such. I've got to really hand it to the Vegas Golden Knights. Their house anthem singer (a black man) did not insert himself between the song and the listener in an act of dominance. Damned if he didn't respect the song. You decide:
He sang it this way consistently. No autotune needed there. I don't dislike black people. I dislike what has become black culture. But this guy puts to shame 90% (black or white) of the singers who tend to mangle the song. Good on him for honoring it instead of trying to "make it his own."
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 30, 2023 18:23:14 GMT -8
The Three Tenors did an amazing job bringing opera to the general public. Pavoratti was a great showman and a hell of a tenor.
I've learned to appreciate arias by Maria Callas, for example. But there's only so much opera I can take.
I couldn't hit a high C if I stood on the Eiffel Tower.
I had not heard of Bjorling. He's obviously very good. His volume seems so effortless. The evolutionary conception of man has no explanation for the practical purpose of such singing ability. No surprise, that. But it's worth mentioning.
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