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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 18:24:47 GMT -8
I agree with you. He sang the song properly and with the respect it is due.
"Stylin" is something many people try, but at which few excel. One must not only have a good voice, one must have a good ear and be able to discern between what sounds like it naturally belongs and what is simply flourish for the sake of flourish. This is something many guitarists have a problem with. They have the technical skills to impress, but too often miss the musical feeling to make technique subordinate to tune.
When I sang, I would sometimes vary from the original tune, but never tried anything too fancy. This works better with the Blues as opposed to something classical.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 30, 2023 18:41:59 GMT -8
My voice teacher once saw Bjorling perform live. I believe my teacher was back stage. He said Bjorling was drunk as a skunk, but once he went on stage he sang like a master.
Bjorling had fabulous vocal control. As my teacher explained, such control for a male was unusual. It was more common among female singers because they were altos or sopranos as young girls, whereas boys's voices broke later and only then did they become a tenor, baritone or bass. This being the case, females generally had a number of years more practice training their voices than males. But Bjorling came from a family of singers and he performed with them as a child, as I recall. His father taught him voice, from an early age.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 1, 2023 19:12:27 GMT -8
I watched Stagecoach on Tubi TV. Note that you need to sign up (free, supposedly) in order for it to save your progress. That's a bother.
But the quality of the print they have is good. I think I started this movie several years ago and never finished it. Sometimes that happens. You either forget to pick it up again or, when you do, the service you had been watching it on has dropped the movie.
It's interesting knowing this is a John Ford film because he's a real son-of-a-bitch. Interesting as well that Claire Trevor has top billing, even over Wayne. But she plays a good role.
She plays counterpart to the virtuous women of The Morality League (or whatever they're called) who are shown as petty and small-minded while the hooker (Dallas) is played as the truly virtuous woman when it comes to helping others. All in all, it's more likely you'd get real help and compassion from a church-going woman than a hooker. But it's a movie and it was a chance for someone in Hollywood to thumb their nose at the righteous (or self-righteous).
I suppose this picture could be seen as the forerunner of all the Irwin Allen disaster films. You have several people thrown together, usually traveling. You learn a bit about each of their stories. Disaster (or Injuns) strikes and you find out who is good in a crisis and who is a villain.
Certainly with Thomas Mitchell as the drunk Doc Boone, and Andy Devine as Buck, you have plenty of character actors in this. Could anyone play the slimy-slick gambler as well as John Carradine does? Even Louise Platt is superb as the pregnant Mrs. Lucy Mallory, wife of the cavalry officer.
The finale is the battle with the Indians. And not for the first time has it occurred to me that the Indians pretty much wrote their own death sentence because of how savage they were. I know this goes against the modern libtard "Dances with Wolves" conception that they have been misunderstood and demonized. And I do think there were many relatively peaceful tribes who unfortunately paid the price by being mixed in with all the rest.
But many of the tribes were truly savage in a way that was shocking. As accounts went around of what the Indians could do, it would have very quickly led to the idea of "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." But even some of Wayne's films (I forget which ones) try to balance this out, as do some of Jimmy Stewart's.
But I do think the savages made it extremely easy for the whites to overrun and displace them. Many truly were savages and deserved what they got. It's interesting to note that there were Indian tribes who immediately allied themselves with the Pilgrims as a way to protect themselves against hostile neighbors.
Yes, it's too bad that we couldn't distinguish better between the good Indians and the bad Indians. But it does nothing to correct history to just suppose they were all good Indians. They were not. And, if memory serves, the tribe that Kevin Costner was protecting in Dances with Wolves (from what I read) were actually typically the aggressors against the tribe they were fighting against in the film.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 5, 2023 13:08:20 GMT -8
Here is a little history about the "noble red man" which today's historians, and such, do not like the public to see. I have often pointed out that when a vicious stone-age culture which makes a fetish of killing people in the most horrific ways collides with a modern culture there is no difficulty in predicting who will win that fight. Anyone who has read the smallest amount of history about Texas will know the horrible Comanches were barbarians of the first order. They came up against a force, (the Texas Rangers) which reacted as cruelly as the Comanches did and the Comanches paid a heavy price for it. Imagine the surprise of those first Comanches, who had only fought against Texans who had single shot fire arms, when they came up against this and later this. Previously, they had been able to go after their white opponents while those folks had to reload their muskets. Once Walker came back from meeting Samuel Colt those Comanches were greeted with non-stop gun fire. Oops.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 8, 2023 17:17:02 GMT -8
Here's Fil again with another video.
Mr. Kung may appreciate this, although it may run a bit slow and be too detailed. But I'm tickled pink (or at least a nice warm sienna) to hear some yute proselytizing for quality instead of fake. Did you ever?
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 8, 2023 18:26:39 GMT -8
My mother loved Mario Lanza. We had several of his albums around the house, thus I have known about him since I was a tyke. He was the first classically trained singer I ever heard.
Fil understands the difference between classically trained singers and others. He is right about the power, but I think it is even more the control. Before I stopped voice, my professor gave me my last two songs for performance. (Neither he nor I knew that I was going to stop at the time) The one was famous for jumping from an easily sung note to something like an A#. This had to be done with complete control which most people cannot do. The other song was less about such blatant dynamic range, rather is had to do with with change up in modalities which are not natural to most people.
It has been fifty years sing I have sung either, but I still have much of my sheet music from the day. I may rummage through the dusty pages and find these two songs.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 9, 2023 8:15:50 GMT -8
Listening to Lanza sing, you can't help but be in awe of his skill and talent. I had never heard of "head voice" and "chest voice" before. But Fil does a good demonstration on how relatively easy it is to hit a higher (though thin) note in a "head voice" but it lacks the power and fullness of those who can do it in the "chest voice." I'm not sure that's the terminology that is accepted and common for singers, but that's how he described it.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 9, 2023 9:08:51 GMT -8
His terminology is correct. Clearly, he understands voice. I would say that he might also have mentioned the importance of the diaphragm in singing. Without breathing and diaphragm control, Mario wouldn't be hitting those high notes so beautifully. Fil separates the different "types" of voices, but in fact, they (the vocal instrument) work together, except the falsetto. One can have a powerful chest voice, but unless that runs through a controlled set of vocal chords and then reverberates in the head voice (the place were one gets upper-respiratory infections) it will not come out so beautifully. One of my biggest problems was the fact that I have a lot of allergies and caught numerous upper-respiratory infections. These clog up your sinuses, your nose, the area behind your nose, the whole area from which the head voice comes, and it makes it impossible to sing at one's best. From being stuffed up, I would go to being too dry which is also a problem. Ah, the trials and vicissitudes of a tenor. Tenors seem to be very special in this regard. The first time you are able to put that all together and hit an A#/B flat or higher, is like having an orgasm. The feeling is very powerful. I was glad to see Fil also confirm my preference for singing sharp. He went into a lot how it helps dramatically. That may be the case, but I believe it simply sounds better and the feeling a listener has from hearing it is somehow more positive. He also mentions how many classical pieces require singers to jump a full octave from one note to the other. I was talking about that type of thing in my last post. And one doesn't just jump from one to the other, like dot, dot, dot. One has something of a slide or short runway to the note.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 10, 2023 7:42:45 GMT -8
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 10, 2023 8:11:06 GMT -8
Frank Sinatra smoke and drank which probably wasn't good for his voice. (And, note: Yes, unless it relates to Frank Sinatra, it can't possibly be an important topic, Mario Lanza perhaps notwithstanding.)
I read that when he hooked up to do an album with Antonio Carlos Jobim, Sinatra went on a rugged swimming regimen in order to be able to increase this breathing control. Makes a lot more sense now what that means and entails.
Might one suppose that a professional singer (opera singer, at least) might travel as much as possible by car or rail rather than airplane because of this?
I will look for a video where he goes into this more because I'd like to hear some demonstration of that. But clearly he's gotten across the idea that simply singing perfect notes is not what the best singers do. And when all you get is perfect notes it no longer songs natural.
I think you visually see that slide on his graph a couple times. But also watching Lanza as he's doing it you get the impression it's as difficult as a bird zooming out of the sky at a hundred miles an hour and then deftly landing on a branch.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 10, 2023 8:22:18 GMT -8
That's a real nice version of the song by Jolson. I'd never heard that one before. I've got a bona fide "album" of his with a date of 1946 on it. My younger brother found it for me at Goodwill a few years back and thought I would like it. I do believe this is why they are called record "albums" because this is like a photo album. It has four records inside in nice page-like sleeves.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 10, 2023 8:54:02 GMT -8
What Fil's machines don't show is that there is something called harmonics at work as well. This video shows that "perfect notes" are not one pitch. This type of thing gives body to a note. I think most of the harmonics are created around the facial area. The sinus, the nose bone, the upper palate area. I suspect that even one's jaws and teeth contribute something. Everything comes together to make a sound. Real singers are well known to be very protective of their vocal instrument. For example, it is said that Barbara Streisand would never consider a nose-job for fear that it might effect her voice. I understand that very well. I don't know these days, but I would be surprised if any classical singer would get off a plane and sing immediately. I would think that he/she would give it a day or two to acclimate. Johnny Carson would tell stories how when Elvis performed in Las Vegas, Elvis would go around turning off the air-conditioning in his suite as it would take out humidity from the already dry Las Vegas air. (Did I tell you I saw Elvis in Vegas? ) I am sure frequent flying (I flew over 1 million miles before moving back to the USA in 2000) helped me lose part of my range, tone and control. Of course, lack of practice, very frequent serious upper-respiratory infections, strep throat and booze helped. I had a range of over two octaves (more if one includes falsetto) and wonderful control. No longer.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 10, 2023 9:57:36 GMT -8
That was an interesting video the way he showed the harmonics. But I disagree with the namby-pamby secular-atheist coining of it as "It's not magic, it's science."
There's nothing "scientific" about it. Yes, you can quantize, explore, and make graphs via "science." But singing itself is contained in no scientific theory. Science in no way predicts or explains singing or the ability to hear.
Because this stuff is indeed magic of a type, the namby-pamby secular-atheist mind must try to demystify everything...until he or she can sit back and pronounce something as "science, not magic."
This is a gross misunderstanding of the purview of science….which is the predominate understanding of science.
He should have said, "Behind the mystical, even magical art of harmonics and singing you can make measurements. But these measurements are not the same thing as the art, the act, the voice, or the hearing. Why or even how they can exist is beyond the realm of mere measurement."
Much easier to be smug and say "It's not magic. It's science" as if you've explained anything. What he showed (not explained) is the complexity and multifaceted nature of a singing voice. This is good. But it is not then owned by "science." Everything that exists is conducive to numbers and measurement. But the numbers and measurements themselves are not the thing.
It's sad to see such wonders reduced to this bland secular-atheist concoction of "It's not magic, it's science." I really get tired of this, as you can tell. Still, a useful and interesting video by this guy.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 10, 2023 10:13:38 GMT -8
It seems I have to apologize. I did not view the whole video. I just went far enough to show how many different tones involved in a "note." Funny he should go off on "it's not magic." This discussion has got me to thinking almost the opposite. Each person has his/her own physical and mental attributes. These cannot be exactly replicated. So when I sing, it is uniquely me singing. And that unique moment will change depending on the venue and many things having to do with me that can vary. As I said, a cold, an allergy. Dry sinuses, mucusy throat. Do I feel like all is right in the world and I am unbeatable? Believe me, how one feels makes a difference. All these things contribute to individual moments which cannot be exactly duplicated. Science can try to explain them, but they can't thoroughly explain them. Why are some singers so popular and others not? Why are some notes soothing and some not? Why does Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings bring me to tears and Souza's Stars and Stripes Forever make me want to stand up and conduct? I also have the feeling that those who create and write the computer programs which measure sounds are fudging a bit. Are they adding to, or simplifying/subtracting from the sound so as to make it appear visible/more understandable from a non-aural perspective?
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 10, 2023 12:47:52 GMT -8
I'll bet you were a marvelous singer. It would have been fun to hear you in your prime.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 10, 2023 13:01:38 GMT -8
That's just me being pedantic. But, really, this materialist-atheist stuff is horrible enough. Do they have to try to cram the miracle of music through this same funnel?
Yes, that's the life of music, the reality of music. If you, for example, printed out on sheets of paper the bits encoded on the metallic subsurface of a CD (it would be a vast string of ones and zeroes), what would you have? These ones and zeroes are used to encode something else. But they are not that something else. This distinction is lost on materialist-atheists who are always looking to "demystify" everything.
Again, it was a remarkable video demonstrating the harmonics. And certainly one thing I will agree with Babs on was not to get a nose job. I think our areas of agreement probably end there.
Forget your mere feeling. What you said is a certainty. Yutes are more and more uncomfortable with the fuzzy gray edges of things, with the intrinsic art of life. They want to quantize everything. They would (and do) kill a thing, take the life out of it...dissect it like a laboratory rat with its guts splayed out on the cold table. They most of all wish to take ideological ownership of it under the name of "science."
Awe -- not the counting of numbers -- is the proper response to such high artistry as Lanza, although numbers have their place. A sheet of music is basically numbers. But I could rearrange those numbers around all day long and not likely produce a piece of Mozart or Beethoven. They are more and more using computers to mimic the creation of art. And from what I understand, they can do a credible job.
But I don't think it's false to believe that the music that comes forth from living a human life is nothing that a computer can every reproduce. It can just mimic. It can be a good parrot.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 10, 2023 13:16:47 GMT -8
Over fifty years ago, I was discussing something along these lines with my voice professor. Musical notation took some centuries to evolve. Changing instruments might have had something to do with this. (My idea, not discussed with my prof) When discussion musical notation, he pointed out that modern rock, pop or whatever one wished to call the music of our generation could not be properly notated. The old notation used for music up to that time simply did not work for people like Jimmy Hendrix, et. al.
Even classical notation is not exact. Fortissimo and piano can be, and are, interpreted in different ways. This is one reason a person can notice the difference in orchestras playing the same piece. That's one reason people say that musicians "interpret" a piece.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 10, 2023 13:18:46 GMT -8
I have to admit, I was not bad. Apparently, my voice prof wanted to put on an opera with me and an older tenor, before I quit. Rare to get two good lyric tenors at the same small college. Oh well. After I quit, I was told that the prof was disappointed that I had quit, but respected me for not simply going on with voice to avoid troubles. I made the discussion, took the consequences and gave my space for others to study voice. He liked that. I admit, I didn't see it in such noble terms. But it sounded good.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 10, 2023 14:01:57 GMT -8
Real music, not the grey synths of most popular music, goes beyond the rational and touches the realms of supernatural. That is why every culture has music that is in tune with their religion. Even those Christian denominations that eschew instruments have very good congregate singing, Church of Christ for example. All acknowledge a moment when the music makes a connection in worship. Some music transcends the realm of mere living and touches the face of G-d. A Johnny Cash guitar riff and a Brandenburg concerto can have the same effect as a powerful sermon or a political speech. In this regard the human race is exceptional, not necessarily unique as whales, dolphins and some other species seem to have their very own songs. Dogs communicate they have different barks for different occasions, and they play, but do not at least in my observation sing or listen to mans music. Perhaps with their superior hearing they hear a different drummer.
Not everyone can make music. I learned early that no matter how quick my ten fingers, piano was not my thing. I could read music and bang out a tune, but the essence, the soul, was not within my skill. I can recognize the talent and skill. The sad part of most modern music is the absence of soul.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 10, 2023 16:19:12 GMT -8
My voice prof mentioned that it had been his experience that the Church of Christ turned out an inordinately large number of good singers, or something to that effect. I was just further proof of that observation.
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