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Post by timothylane on Oct 25, 2019 12:17:51 GMT -8
Suppressing John Brown was a foreshadowing of the Army of Northern Virginia. Although the troops were mostly Marines from the Navy Yard, the commander was Robert E. Lee and one subordinate was J. E. B. Stuart. Both just happened to be on scene. VMI sent a contingent to his execution under their teacher of artillery tactics and natural science, Thomas J. Jackson. (He wasn't a good teacher -- he prepared well but couldn't handle questions except by repeating the relevant portion of his lecture. At least some students called him "To Fool" -- including James A. Walker, who was expelled but later commanded the Stonewall Brigade.)
Yes, there were northern slave-owners. Stephen Douglas was one, by way of his southern wife. So was Jesse Bright, an Indiana Senator who was expelled in 1862. And I understand the fictional Simon Legree, villain of Uncle Tom's Cabin, was himself a Yankee -- Stowe's target was slavery, not the South.
That line was mentioned by Foote in the Ken Burns series. "Why are you here?" "I'm here because you're here." He rather liked the line. It may even have made it into his history, because I'm pretty sure I'd heard of it already.
But if you want an interesting line, there's the grisly diary entry found on a corpse when they finally cleared away the dead (and any wounded still surviving) after Third Cold Harbor. "June 3rd. Cold Harbor. I was killed." (The delay in clearing them resulted from Grant's excessive pride -- to ask for a true to clear away the casualties was an admission of defeat. He did the same thing after the second assault at Vicksburg, but the sensitive Pemberton made up for it. Lee didn't because he knew whose wounded were dying without care.)
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 25, 2019 12:57:42 GMT -8
The link is to the 1860 US Census. If one will study the numbers one will note the relative size of the problem the country faced.
I am not quite sure how to make a good correlation between % of owners and % of families owning slaves, but one can see that in all but two States, S. Carolina and Mississippi, the % of families owning slaves was below 50%. The % of slave owners across the South was around 5%. It should be no surprise that S. Carolina was the most vocal about holding on to slavery. I believe that is one reason Sherman's march through S. Carolina was even more destructive that his march from Atlanta to the sea.
It is likely that Mississippi and S. Carolina had the largest percentage of slaves as their agriculture was what came closest to so-called "industrial agriculture" in which large farms specialize in mono-crop production such as cotton, tobacco and rice. This type of agriculture was very well established in the Dutch East Indies for example. They initially had some local slaves but in the long run did not require slaves as there was a surfeit of Chinese coolies willing and able to leave South China to work on South East Asian plantations for next to nothing.
Which brings up another point. It is very doubtful that the Southern States could have carried slavery much farther, geographically, than the extent it had already reached by 1860. They knew this and it was one of the main reasons for the push to succeed.
The West in general did not provide the type of land needed for industrial agriculture. This was especially the case for New Mexico and Arizona which were the largest future areas available for slavery according to the Missouri Compromise. Furthermore, there were already a large number of Chinese in the West who worked like dogs for less than a dog needed to survive.
The rich Southern Slave interests had a Tiger by the tail and they could not let go. For an idea of what might have happened to one side or the other (slaves or owners) had the South won its freedom, just look at Haiti. The Southern plantation owners and politicians understood this very well.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 25, 2019 13:26:52 GMT -8
Very interesting numbers. I was surprised there were so many slaveholders even in the deep South. Many only had a few slaves (such as the Carvers in Missouri, who owned young George and may have been relatives or even direct ancestors of Elizabeth).
I doubt the number of slaves affected Sherman's brutality, though he was also harsh in Mississippi, with the next highest percentage after South Carolina. Note that South Carolina was the first state to secede, and also the state in which the war started, the troops were eager to punish it. They were much milder in North Carolina, which had been much more reluctant to secede.
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 25, 2019 13:30:35 GMT -8
No, it was the fact that S. Carolina was considered the biggest instigator of Secession. And had been a troublemaker for decades.
That doesn't surprise me at all, water being one of the two most important ingredients in farming. Furthermore, when the country was founded and growing, it was also much easier to move around on the coast than inland. A lot of people would stay close to the coast.
I expanded on my previous comment re other points as well.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 25, 2019 13:33:56 GMT -8
There were never many slaves in Kansas or New Mexico (which then included Arizona). A Republican Senator (it may have been Seward) even challenged the South on this, offering to admit New Mexico as a slave state provided it could change its mind (which would undoubtedly happen). They rejected the idea. Note that the pro-slavery Lecompton constitution in Kansas was designed to prevent them from banning slavery for a considerable time.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 25, 2019 14:07:16 GMT -8
What surprised me were the percentages of families owning slaves -- nearly half in Alabama, Florida, and Georgia, for example. I had seen much lower figures -- probably based on slaveholders as a percentage of the population rather than the percentage of families (which would be more accurate).
I was also surprised, looking it over just now, to see that there were more slaves in Nebraska (15) than in Kansas (2). Nebraska may have included the Dakotas at this time, and perhaps even the upper montane West. Nevada was listed, but not New Mexico (which had not been formally organized due to the disputes over slavery). Utah and New Mexico were probably included in that, though by 1862 there were Colorado units in the Glorieta campaign (and playing a key role) against Sibley's Confederate invasion (which plays a minor if inaccurate role in The Good, the Bad, And the Ugly).
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 25, 2019 14:53:56 GMT -8
Me too. The percentages of slave owners as per this census matches other data I have seen. I have also seen numbers showing the percentage of owners with a large number of slaves to be very small. As I recall, the largest percentage of owners had one or two slaves.
Given the fact that a slave counted as 3/5ths of an owner, it would be interesting to know if the actual number of slaves was somewhat smaller than the census shows. It would be in the interest of the various states to claim a higher population than they, in fact, had.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 26, 2019 9:17:44 GMT -8
I wonder if being out in the cold is what got him. Tony and Rob are now off on a “Warbasm” which means a blitzkrieg of sightseeing of Civil War sights. And they must be careful if they are to sneak a bivouac on Bloody Lane (known as “the Sunken Road” before the battle) at Antietam (Sharpsburg). National Park Service employees often have night vision goggles to deter people like Rob and Tony. But they pull it off in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, they got a bit lost and instead of walking a half mile or so, they go on a circuitous route of about five miles. And as Tony notes, they learn something about the true life of the soldier, particularly the Confederate soldier. Endless marching. Everything connected with the true Civil War can pretty much be summed up as misery. I’m into the fifth episode of Ken Burn’s Civil War series as well as 60% into this book. There’s little joy to be had except in romantic notions of battle. And Matthew Brady’s New York exhibit pretty much wiped that notion out. Shelby Foote notes that one of the reasons the battles were so bloody was that the tactics had not caught up with the technology. The rifles being used could kill at 700 yards (theoretically, at least). Hand-to-hand combat was extremely rare. From reading this book and watching this series, it’s difficult to know if Lee and Jackson were geniuses or simply had a foe so inept as to make anyone look good. I suspect it was a little of both. And it’s arguable that McCLelland was a traitor. Actually, it’s difficult to know what his motivation was. Possibly his hatred of Lincoln was so strong that if Lincoln wanted something done, his inclination was to do the opposite. Early in the Burns series they have an amazing quote from Sam Houston who is ousted from politics because of his stand against secession: Houston, and very few others (such as Sherman), thought the war would be a protracted affair. The Burns series notes that such people were often cast off as lunatics. Only God knows why cooler heads didn’t prevail. But they didn’t. Stonewall Jackson was an interesting man. Tony and Rob visit the Chancellorsville battlefield where he was a victim of friendly fire while out reconnoitering, trying to determine if a night attack could be made to follow up their earlier success. In the dark he and some of his riders were mistaken for Yankee cavalry. His arm was amputated successfully (Tony and Rob visit that gravesite as well) and he was taken to a nearby home to recuperate. He may have died of pneumonia but it’s apparently difficult to give an exact cause. What is remarkable is that he had a stoic “good death” by the standards of the day. Horwitz writes, remembering an interview he once saw of Shelby Foote:
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 26, 2019 9:46:57 GMT -8
One of the current themes of the book is how many of the old battlefields have been overrun with mini-mall sprawl. Horwitz visits Vicksburg which apparently has lost whatever old-world charm it once had to casinos, tattoo parlors, and fast-food chains. The price of progress. In the various interviews and quips that Horwitz collects, there does seem (at least amongst reenactors) to be a lament about how trashy and trivial the modern world is. “Back then” at least people knew what life was about and it had meaning. Nostalgia has its own narcotic effect on the mind, but I do think there’s a lot of truth in that. A stately old Southern house-and-grounds is going to be much more appealing to the heart and soul than yet another Taco Bell. But the former are being lost to the latter. Remembrances, reeanctments, and such are clouded and mixed in with all kinds of motivations, not all of them good, but apparently most of them harmless. Horwitz must have an engaging personality because he has no problem getting people to talk to him, often for hours. He meets one fellow in Vicksburg who runs a pharmacy-cum-museum. A man named Garache had wanted to be a doctor but settled for being a collector of Civil War medicines and instruments which he displays in his store: Interesting things are buried not only in the attic of the South but in the back yards: I’ve searched quite a bit through Google Maps for that traffic circle and that cannon, but haven’t found it yet.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 26, 2019 9:47:08 GMT -8
Some rifles, such as the English Whitworths imported by the Confederates at considerable expense and used mainly by sharpshooters, could hit even further. The exhibit at Chickamauga (the second best collection of War of the Rebellion firearms I've seen, after that at Gettysburg) suggested that poet and Union general William H. Lytle was killed with one. I've wondered if John Sedgwick (VI Corps commander) was killed by one at Spotsylvania.
There were efforts to come up with some sort of a compromise arrangement in 1861. I think Congress even passed a proposed 13th Amendment to forbid federal interference with any state institution (i.e., slavery, but they were still reluctant to say the word and thus openly acknowledge their servile connection). The later 13th Amendment was much better. But there were too many hotheads and fire-eaters.
The question of how much of a general's success is his own brilliance and how much the incompetence of his opponents is always there. Could a smarter general than Burnside have defeated Lee at Fredericksburg? (In fact, Catton suggests that Burnside's actual orders could have worked a lot better if Generals Sumner and Franklin had merely traded places.) Could a more sensible general than Pemberton (or a more enterprising one than Johnston) have saved Vicksburg?
Luck matters, too. Albert Sidney Johnston only once exerted front-line leadership at Shiloh, and was fatally wounded. Grant did so many times, and was never hurt. Suppose it had been the reverse, with Grant dead and Johnston alive? It's a question that comes up many times. What if Jackson had recovered from his wounds, as was happening for a few days?
Incidentally, Jackson's final words seem to be a childhood reversion. James Robertson, in his biography of Jackson, noted that as a child in Clarksburg (now in West Virginia), Jackson would escape his troubles by boating over a river there to a small forested glade for a rest.
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Post by artraveler on Oct 26, 2019 10:06:11 GMT -8
There is no doubt that Jackson was a genuine military genius. His Valley campaign is still a study of how a mobile small force can confound and defeat larger units. His death at Chancellorsville is perhaps the element that lost the war for the south. Lee, I think, would have listened to Jackson at Gettysburg and turned after the first day to get between Mead and DC. A moderate victory and frustration for Mead could have cost Lincoln the election and a McCellen presidency would have sought peace.
I don't believe the south would have remained independent for long, perhaps 20 years. But regardless of the victor slavery was dead in North America. Victory, of a sort, for the south would have resulted in the contraction of slavery as technology for plantings, cultivating and picking cotton ended the practice. The war put a stop to the growth of that tech. Peace in 1864 would have freed up the resources north and south and the second industrial revolution would have occurred 20 years earlier. Of course, this is all a counter-factual but perhaps the elements of the old republic would have lingered into the 20th century. That republic is surely gone now.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 26, 2019 10:06:41 GMT -8
Most battlefields only hold a portion of the original area. On the other hand, I once read someone's view that maybe the best thing to do is to use the land as we would other land, leaving the war behind. I think some of both is what's needed. Fortunately, there aren't so many potential battle sites that we would have to convert the whole country to memorials. Unlike, say, many parts of Europe.
Artillery, particularly field artillery, back then was mostly rated on the weight of a typical shell. The popular bronze smoothbore Napoleon (named after Napoleon III) was a 12-pounder. Parrott guns were rifled. The most popular field guns were 10-pounders, heavily used by both sides and roughly comparable with the 3-inch Ordnance rifles (which were also popular). There were also 20-pounders, and the 30-pounder was a light siege gun. I suspect that a gun weighing 9000 pounds would be a lot bigger than that.
Since many of the Confederate guns were captured pieces (they also made their own, but quality was often a problem, especially with heavier weapons), they naturally had the same sort of weapons as the Union. I once read that Bragg outgunned Rosecrans at Chickamauga (which, being heavily forested, was not a battle where artillery mattered so much), mostly from guns captured in his previous two defeats (Perryville and Stone's River). One can learn much about Bragg by considering that I wasn't slipping up there: his artillery was well stocked by guns he captured in battles he ended up losing.
Note, by the way, the band around the gun shown in the photo. John A. Dahlgren designed a bottle-shaped gun, with a much thicker barrel near the breech than at the muzzle, so that if it blew up it would so further up the barrel. (Dahlgren was later a Union admiral, among other things commanding the attempts to take Charleston starting around mid-1863.) Soon they began banding guns, especially rifled guns. The Confederate Brooke rifle was very extensively banded. (John Brooke was involved in the conversion of USS Merrimack to CSS Virginia, though he hadn't yet designed his rifle.)
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 26, 2019 10:11:55 GMT -8
I’m not sure that in a siege situation, there’s a hell of a lot a garrison commander can do but hope for reinforcements. In Burns’ Civil War series, it’s told that one reason Lee headed north (and was eventually met at Gettysburg) was to lure Grant away from Vicksburg. The Confederates won a lot of battles. The problem was, they lost a lot of men even in “victories.” The North could afford the losses and were easily replaced. That was not the case in the South. But the South had some natural advantages. They were defending what they saw as their homeland. It’s been noted often that the Confederate soldier had a swagger — even when dressed in the filthiest of rags — that a Union soldier didn’t have. But there were plenty of men on both sides who wanted nothing to do with the carnage. Many were drafted and quite a few never showed up. I can’t say that I blamed them. And the Burns’s series notes that when the Confederate government began to requisition slaves, many marched their slaves the hell out of the region, clear over to Texas. Jefferson Davis is said to have lamented that he didn’t have the kind of authority that Lincoln had. There was the inherent problem of the Confederacy rebelling against central authority but needing that central authority to be able to break away. It was noted that Davis had declared a special day for memorial (or something). But one governor, disdaining any kind of central authority (but his own, of course), did not comply. Despite the necessity of the South to try to herd cats, they seemed to have done a remarkably good job considering what they had. Both sides were absolutely primitive in regards to war….just the basic functions of it. Early-on (perhaps later on as well), there was no established provision for dealing with men who were wounded on the battlefield. And we all know that disease took as many or more men as did battle wounds. The Sanitary Commission was an incredibly interesting and useful thing to have popped up “rooted in a meeting at the New York Infirmary for women, with more than 50 women, addressed by Henry Bellows, a Unitarian Minister.” I’m not sure of the official governmental ties. But this would appear to be an effort almost completely fueled by volunteers, particularly volunteer women. And they had an immediate impact in the camps, cutting deaths from wounds and sickness by half. When you read and watch a history of the Civil War, you can’t help but be struck by the reckless negligence of it all. Life was cheap. Even if Pickett’s Charge could be considered a big mistake, it was the belief at the time that the way to break the enemy was to overrun him. Even the North, with its vast material and production abundances, often had trouble actually get the materiel to the front. Battles were seemingly rarely planned or organized. You just marched until you found the enemy and then went at it. Obviously with this as a backdrop, any kind of savvy generaling is going to be effective. For all Grant’s reputation of being a rather blunt (but effective) instrument, he did do some tricky stuff at Vicksburg, crossing the river some distance downstream and then getting behind the city. With no easy way to supply himself, it was a risky move. But it worked. It’s interesting that apparently Jackson was a very religious man. One could read some fascinating things into his last words. The sad fact is that all the Christian (or Jewish) belief in the world had little or no impact in regards to loving one’s neighbor as oneself. Or the keeping of slaves, for that matter.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 26, 2019 10:17:41 GMT -8
No one can say what certainly would have happened if Jackson had lived, or any other alternative. Lincoln would certainly have tried to go on, probably by bringing Grant east along with enough troops to make up for the Army of Potomac's losses. Given the coincidence of timing, Vicksburg would still have fallen, and with it Port Hudson, which would have given the Union control of the Mississippi. But Rosecrans's conquest of Middle Tennessee might have been his limit, leaving Chattanooga under Bragg.
An interesting one that my last posting might suggest is what could have happened at Hampton Roads. For example, the Monitor almost sank on the way there. What if it had? The Virginia wasn't as big a threat as the Union feared, but it could certainly have stopped McClellan's plans, forcing him to do something else -- if he could bring himself to do so.
Incidentally, it's well to remember that McClellan, unlike his (party-chosen) VP and many of his supporters, was a War Democrat who had no wish to let the Confederates go. Of course, if the war went badly enough, he might have been likelier to give up than Lincoln. But his view seems to have been that his soldiers -- whom he loved, perhaps too much -- had sacrificed to preserve the union, and he certainly didn't want their sacrifice to be in vain. Incidentally, he served a term as New Jersey Governor -- a state Lincoln carried only partly in 1860 (the electoral vote split was 4 for Lincoln and 3 for Douglas) and lost in 1864. Funny how things work.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 26, 2019 10:26:01 GMT -8
I think it was a huge blow for Lee to lose Jackson. From the Burns Civil War series, it’s said that (Longstreet, I think) wanted to tell Lee that the charge was a bad idea but in the end couldn’t bring himself to do so. Foote noted that men had the courage to participate in the charge, but no one had the courage to tell Lee “no.” But I think it’s reasonable assume that Jackson had that kind of rapport with Lee.
Whatever the case may be, the North didn’t seem to be demoralized by defeat. Many more were apparently shocked by the Emancipation Proclamation. Many thought it the worst insult to base the war on the freeing of n-words. The draft riots in New York showed a bit of discomfort with the war effort as well, although I’m not sure that an Irish mob is anything to base policy on or to gauge public opinion.
The secret of the war, from what I can see, is the ability of the North to take casualties — and to endure terrible generalship. Lee had to do what he had to do. There was little choice other than to assume the possibility that a victory here or a deep thrust there would demoralize the union and also get Britain or France on their side.
But even if Lee won a victory at Gettysburg, I don’t see the North folding their tents. But hindsight is 20-20. This was a large war with hundreds of fronts. But it seems that as soon as the Union got control of the Mississippi, the outcome was certain. The Emancipation Proclamation then sealed shut the possibility of getting any help from England. All that the South could hope for was that the North would tire of the war. Incredibly, despite the massive casualties that the North took, this was not the case.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 26, 2019 10:29:36 GMT -8
By the time Pemberton was trapped in Vicksburg, there was little he could do but hold out as long as possible and hope Johnston could rescue him. But at Champion's Hill, he had a chance, albeit probably a small one. The battle was certainly in the balance for quite a while.
Jackson wasn't anti-black, and in fact held Sunday school classes for slaves that were of uncertain legality (for obvious reasons, the slaveholders who dominated the antebellum South didn't like educated slaves). As a Calvinist he tended toward predestination. Slavery to him was thus simply their unfortunate lot in life. We all have our cross to bear; that was theirs.
One of Bragg's concerns when he retreated from Stone's River was his thousands of wounded. His medical director, whom he discussed this with, wondered if any of his men could image that he shed tears for them. But there were also plenty of hospitals on both sides, both field hospitals placed wherever they could find a place on the battlefield neither too close to be vulnerable to enemy fire but not to far to carry the wounded. There were also permanent hospitals. Chimborazo Hospital in Richmond had a very good reputation for NOT losing the wounded under its head, James McCaw.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 26, 2019 10:34:37 GMT -8
One minor note: the Emancipation Proclamation predated the capture of Vicksburg and Port Hudson by half a year. (It was simultaneous with Stone's River, and also with the Confederate recapture of Galveston.) Many historians think that it ended any possibility of a Confederate victory because neither Britain nor France would go to war to save slavery.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 26, 2019 11:40:18 GMT -8
In the Burns series, they note this one particular hospital in the South (most hospitals were in people’s homes) which had the best record of any hospital, North or South. The must have been the one although I don’t remember the name.
It was noted that medical care was much more difficult in the South. In the North, railroads connected most cities and thus supplies and people were easier to move around. In the South, you had these large houses that were basically isolated hospital islands. They did the best they could and obviously some did it very well.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 26, 2019 11:44:54 GMT -8
There were certainly Southerners who didn’t own slaves. There were Southerners who were not fighting for slavery but to repel those damn Yankees. But inherent to the South's cause was slavery. Jackson wouldn’t have gotten to within a country mile of command in the Southern armies if he was against slavery. But it’s nice that he had Sunday school classes for the slaves. That was awful white of him.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 26, 2019 12:06:43 GMT -8
Jackson certainly wasn't anti-slavery; he simply didn't see a moral issue in it. To him it was just a fact of life in the South. He had a few household slaves and (like Jefferson Davis, for that matter) treated them reasonably well. (This was usually the case with household slaves. You don't want to be too harsh to the hand that rocks the cradle, or the one that cooks or serves the meals.) He was a most peculiar sort, whom Freeman compared to Oliver Cromwell.
Lee, of course, inherited a lot of slaves, mostly field hands. They also were to be freed, though his financial situation made it difficult. (Henry Lee was a capable commander, but unsuccessful otherwise. The injuries he received in a pro-war riot in Baltimore targeting a newspaper publisher he was visiting didn't help.) He ended up holding them as long as his mother's will called for as a result, but did emancipate them then. How he treated them is an interesting question. Most of the time it was probably in the hands of an overseer while he was on duties elsewhere.
Incidentally, Bruce Catton once wondered where one of those duties could have led. In early 1861, he was in command in Texas until his pro-Southern commander (General Twiggs) returned from leave. When Texas demanded that the Army pull out of Texas, Twiggs readily agreed. But what if he hadn't returned yet, and it was up to Lee to respond? Would he have resisted? And where might that have led if he had?
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