kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 28, 2019 16:45:56 GMT -8
I wonder where these people are from? A half-educated, no an illiterate with a brain would know that it was all just some story made up by a writer or director.
I loved the movie as a child, and still find it first rate. It is grand. I only read the book in my later thirties or early forties. As I recall, Rhett is more of a ruthless scoundrel in the book. I seem to recall he was not nearly the lovable rogue that Clark Gable played. Other than that, I don't recall much about it. Perhaps this is because the movie crowds out all other memories of the story. It is a long book, over 1,000 pages.
As an aside, this is another example of why I tell people "Do not get your history from the movies or TV."
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 28, 2019 16:55:53 GMT -8
There is the famous story of the "Burning of Atlanta" scene which I believe was done at some back lot in L. A. or its environs, which was to be torn down in any case. Selznick still did not have his Scarlett, but as he watched the flames consume the set was introduced to Vivien Leigh.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 28, 2019 17:05:45 GMT -8
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who seem to think movies are accurate history even when they aren't about specific actual events. Many of them do try to get it right, but poetic license is always an option, and they may have a small number of sources. Zulu gets some details wrong (among other things, they weren't supposed to cross the Buffalo River so the attack should never have happened, which is one reason they gave up when on the verge of winning). And that's based on an actual event that it tries to portray accurately. Much the same happened with A Night to Remember.
And just remember, all those fools' votes are just as good as yours and mine.
I don't know if there's any truth to the anecdote, but in Eugene Burdick's The 480 there's a scene in which a pollster, checking in late 1963 on presidential choices, finds several for someone who was recently in the news in an interesting way. Not recognizing the name, he notes that fictional characters are often popular choices in such polls, such as James Bond being recommended to helm the CIA.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 28, 2019 21:13:44 GMT -8
One has to (or should) do a lot of reading and research before coming to any firm conclusions. Very few people go around with a holistic view on even the narrowest of subject, let along a large one such as the Civil War….where even this nomenclature is vigorously detested by some.
In the short or long run, it doesn’t matter. The war is over. Or at least I think it is. It sounds as if some aren’t satisfied with that outlook.
Horwitz stumbles across a little community in Georgia called Fitzgerald. After dealing with some Andersonville apologists he needed a break. Yes, even Andersonville is complicated. But only if we make it so. The conditions in prison, North and South, were often horrible. Andersonville was arguably the worst.
After listening to the worst sort of partisan drivel from some ladies about Wirz (commandant of Andersonville), Horwitz asks a wacko in the crowd at a Wirz memorial:
So Horwitz is pleased to go off to a place in Georgia (Fitzgerald) where the Blues and the Grays actually lived in harmony. It’s a good story and one that I’d never heard of. Half the streets are named after Confederate heroes. Half after Union heroes.
That makes me think of one of Timothy’s alternative histories. It seems to me we’re living in the wrong one.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 28, 2019 21:17:22 GMT -8
Right after Gettysburg, those are the sites to see. As more series (in particular) are shot on locations, the locations (such as with Doc Martin) become ginormous tourist attractions. Usually it's the case where a town presented in a series is a composite of several locations. But even then, there are actual real-life bona fide locations that you can go see that are exactly as in the show (aside from how they may have temporarily been dressed up with signage and other props).
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 28, 2019 21:24:05 GMT -8
About about every damn book or article I read on subjects that intersects on movies, I'll read stories of this exact same thing. I used to assume that writers were making this stuff up or exaggerating. I now think it is extremely common. And I don’t understand it.
Yes, we might wonder if any of the characters are based on real-life characters. I suppose ultimately all fiction is to some extent. But to wonder where Scarlett and Rhett are buried? I don’t get that. That’s just cuckoo.
Granted, again, it becomes a chore to know whether movies or TV series “based on a real story” have much intersection with the truth. It’s gotten so bad, I don’t tend to trust any of it although much of it is still good entertainment.
Where is Scarlett buried? I mean, did they think they were watching the 9 O’clock news when then tuned into Gone With The Wind? Seriously. You tell me. I don’t get it.
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Post by timothylane on Oct 29, 2019 5:59:04 GMT -8
There can be worse alternate histories as well as better ones dealing with the War of the Rebellion. Joseph Major did one this year called The Year of Jubilo! -- an ironic title, as it turns out. The Lincoln assassinaton plot is larger and more effective, taking out Lincoln, Johnson, Foster (Senate President Pro Tempore), Colfax (House Speaker), and Seward. Thus, there is no legal President, so Edwin Stanton forms a "temporary" commission led by himself and members chosen by the Senate (Wade) and House (Stevens). They never officially declare the rebellion ended and gradually set up a totalitarian government in the name of freedom. (I just finished reading it, and may do a review.)
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 29, 2019 7:58:19 GMT -8
I’ve finished Confederates in the Attic. It seems like a long book and you certainly get your money’s worth, although I had checked it out for free at my local library via the Libby app.
I hope Rob is out there somewhere still doing his reenactments super hardcore. Given the hardships involved, this is definitely a young man’s sport. I hope he has by now promoted himself to general with better food, better clothes, and a tent to sleep in. Something tells me Rob would never go for that kind of Farbing.
There’s sort of a built-in epilogue to Horwitz’s account. He skips a year amd briefly tells of his last outing with Rob. They have a great time of it with a much larger group (about 30) that Rob had recruited. Rob asks Tony to stay on for another day but Tony is missing his family and young child and feels the pull of home as certainly many boys in the army (North or South) did. Many just plain missed their mommas.
Horwitz’s last couple of excursions in the South aren’t quite as interesting as some of his previous ones. But it does help to tell the whole story. And I wish I could say his book ended on a hopeful note but it does not.
Horwitz eventually is invited to a school classroom to observe. It’s a predominantly black school and the teacher is black. Long story short, throughout this book Tony has run into some outrageous people saying some outrageous things. But this was the only time he got into a heated argument with someone. This black teacher was a fruitcake. You sort of have to read between the lines a bit, but he writes that he regrets losing his cool.
But if he is reporting accurately, you can’t blame him. He ran into a hive of absolute poison. Here’s part of a short exchange with this racist teacher:
Her students are even worse. Long dead surely is the idea of “Father Abraham.”
It’s impossible to quantity white racism. But it seems clear black racism is throughly inculcated and applauded in many blacks. “White flight” is understandable if this is what they face. The dreams of Booker T. Washington and Frederick Douglass go unfulfilled in large portions of America.
Is this the fault of whites? To some extent, sure. Racism does exist. But “racism” has become a pervasive dodge for accepting blame for the inadequacies of one’s own culture.
Life is still complicated in the South.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 29, 2019 8:26:58 GMT -8
Commissioner of New Scotland Yard: Sherlock Holmes. But I think Bond would be excellent as head of the CIA.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 29, 2019 8:29:39 GMT -8
I downloaded “Last of the Mohicans” last night. I might try that. And it’s not the length of “Gone With the Wind” the puts me off it. I just think I’ve done enough of that era for a while. Plus the movie is just so darn good, why read the book?
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Post by artraveler on Oct 29, 2019 8:35:39 GMT -8
Then I have to explain that the whole thing was filmed in California. Not one scene in Georgia At the beginning of the movie there is a shot of a mill. That mill is in Little Rock. There is even a sign giving credit to the movie. It's interesting that most people view GWTW through the lens of the movie rather than the book. As movies always do, the characters are less complex. Scarlett has gotten a bad rap from the movie. And Rhett Butler is not as pure as the movie makes him. However, at the end of the day the best scene in the movie is with Rhett standing at the bottom of the stair at 12 Oaks watching Scarlett. In a theater you can still hear the women moan. And that was the Oscar winning shot for the movie. It's pure romance and no other movie in 1939 could compete not even John Wayne's Searchers. IMHO a much better movie
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 29, 2019 8:51:14 GMT -8
In truth, I’d rather read a biography of Sherman than Grant. Some choices in that regard: Sherman: A Soldier’s Passion for Order. This is available in Kindle format. There are only 27 customer reviews of it but the reviews are very positive. From one of the top reviews there, it sound’s like way too much domestic stuff is included. Not interested in the battles with his wife. William Tecumseh Sherman: In the Service of My Country: A Life. This is also available in Kindle edition and has even a better rating. The first review there says its a breeze to read. Sounds interesting. This same reviewer also recommends: Sherman: Soldier, Realist, American by B. H. Liddell Hart. This may be slanted more toward military strategy….which is the slant I’d prefer rather than endless pages about his rotten father or struggles with poverty, etc. A reviewer rwrites: The other logical choice for a Sherman biography seems to be: Fierce Patriot: The Tangled Lives of William Tecumseh Sherman I think I’ll start with reading the free Kindle sample of Liddell Hart’s book. I’ll let you know. As I had mentioned once, I think I have a very valuable edition of Grant’s memoirs, the two volume set of “Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant.” They’re not in mint condition but pretty near. They look like this:
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Post by timothylane on Oct 29, 2019 9:05:40 GMT -8
Interestingly, in Joseph Major's Year of Jubilo!, which I mentioned earlier, Lincoln is not only the sole President named in histories (the others are too tainted by the slavocracy), but he's always "Father Abraham".
I had both the Grant and Sherman autobiographies, as well as some other biographies of Grant. Sherman I just can't take enough to get a general biography. Liddell Hart and his rival military expert J. F. C. Fuller had a disagreement over Grant (whom Fuller preferred) and Sherman (whom Liddell Hart preferred). Liddell Hart was a big fan of the "indirect approach", hence his fondness for Sherman. At some point he wrote a biography of Scipio Africanus (which I've read) titled A Greater Than Napoleon, so Fuller suggested that his biography of Sherman should be titled A Greater Than Genghis Khan.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Oct 29, 2019 9:07:42 GMT -8
I think I mentioned that I watched The Searchers again a few weeks ago. It was the first time I’d seen it in high definition and it really was a treat.
Not having read the book, the only thing that seems apparent is the lack of criticism regarding the movie that “the book was better.” They put some real effort into recreating the book and it sounds as if they did a good job. Vivien Leigh passes the threshold of mere actress and created an icon. Clark Gable was Clarke Gable which is all he needed to be. And because he was in his prime, that was particularly amazing.
One of the people that Horwitz interviews was trying to express what he thought about the Civil War and why so many remain fascinated with the Old South. He basically summed it up: A lot of people (then and now) are poor or from simple stock. But those old plantation houses and that elite life had glamour.
However much soft-focusing it must take to overlook the bad stuff, I agree about the glamour. And the movie of Gone With the Wind certainly captures that. What glamour is there today? I have to think hard. Most “glamour” is associated with the trash who pass themselves off as pop stars of one kind or another (music, movies, TV).
Real or fictitious — and certainly a little of both — Scarlett O’Hara is something worth sitting up and taking notice of. And as Horwitz notes about the Civil War, it was the last battle where one man could make a huge difference, war having become so specialized and mechanized since then. It’s a man thing, for sure, but there is/was glamour in the life of the soldier. As dangerous as it was, he was doing something amazing. He was seeing things and places he had never seen before and would never see again.
As necessary as milking cows and planting corn is, these menial pursuits will never compete with the romance of the larger stage, whether of battle or the fantastically rich.
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 29, 2019 9:31:45 GMT -8
This is an example of why I previously mentioned that one cannot be wishy-washy when dealing with this subject. The old saying "give um an inch and they will take a mile" is appropriate. These people cannot be reasoned with.
I have often read of the horrible white people, but have not run into any of them. I do not often read of the nasty blacks, but have run into some. I have also run into such Latinos who have told me that they are going to take back the land Mexico lost to the USA in the Mexican/American War. Reconquista.
Do you believe such people exist only in the South?
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 29, 2019 9:34:36 GMT -8
I read all of Cooper's books about 15-20 years ago. The style and language are a bit archaic, but I enjoyed them, especially "The Last of the Mohicans."
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 29, 2019 9:40:48 GMT -8
I read the Kindle version of Grant's memoirs 5-10 years back. I may have even reviewed them on ST. The one thing about them that has stayed with me is that Grant was clearly nettled by the constant praise heaped upon Robert E. Lee and the little credit Grant is given for his generalship. I believe the memoirs were written in the 18880s so Lee had already become the icon he still is.
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 29, 2019 9:45:32 GMT -8
LOL. I agree with Fuller as regards Boni. Napoleon was a murderous tyrant who has been given much too much positive ink. He not only let people be needlessly slaughtered; he also murdered many who surrendered or were not involved in fighting.
I have several books on Napoleon and/or his battles, but cannot recall which (or if all) lays out his barbarity.
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 29, 2019 9:51:59 GMT -8
Churchill called it "the last war between gentlemen." It did not start out as "Total War," but pretty much ended as one.
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Post by kungfuzu on Oct 29, 2019 10:02:48 GMT -8
I agree, but I wonder if you and I agree who the unsatisfied people are? I believe it is the left, by in large, that keeps stirring things up and creates the atmosphere in which the war is still being fought. In doing so, they create a tremendous amount of anger and resentment, particularly among blacks. Is there any doubt that much of the support blacks give the left is due to resentment against whites? When one hears pricks like Lebron James and that fat bald-headed Charles Barkley defend China, does one doubt that a good portion of anti-Americanism and anti-white sentiment is not at the root of such expressions?
From the moment of the birth of the USA, race has been the greatest single problem which has faced our country. Regardless what anyone says, too much diversity creates division, not strength. It is a shame, but I do not see how this will be changed in any significant way.
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