Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 8:56:54 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 12, 2019 8:56:54 GMT -8
I read a fairly glowing review by Stu Cvrk of the new movie, Midway: Be Sure To See The Remake Of The Movie “Midway”. After reading that Wood Harrelson is playing Chester W. Nimitz, I admit to being dubious. I’m still not over the trauma of 2001’s Pearl Harbor with Ben Affleck. You can sneer at the added-on character of Matt Garth all you want, but I thought the 1976 movie was superb entertainment without being goofball. This article suggests that this movie is more accurate. But let’s admit, if you portrayed an accurate account of the Old West, no one would want to see it. It’s about making a good story. So I don’t mind a few liberties being taken in that regard as long as the essence of it isn’t mucked with. And from what this reviewer is saying, this new movie is not mucked up with political correctness. I suppose I could go out to the lobby in those scenes with Woody Harrelson trying to act like the great Chester Nimitz. The article does provide some interesting insights, such as that Yamamoto’s intelligence was based on some faulty assumptions. And that war games that Japanese had played ran into something interesting: I think the article also probably fairly indirectly stated that “Point Luck” might have been a good name for the point from which the American Navy launched it’s attack. This battle could have easily gone the other way. Kyle Smith also has a review of the movie at National Review Online. After reading this next bit, I may have to take Kyle Smith more seriously than I have in the past: And.. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not hoping the movie is bad. But it’s long been my contention that today’s yutes cannot make a proper movie without turning into another stupid Marvel comic book movie. Maybe Kyle Smith is wrong in his assessment. But Woody as Nimitz? I’m suspicious. About that, Smith writes: Woody Harrelson. Henry Fonda. What has the world come to? And read this about Dennis Quaid who plays Admiral Halsey (which I thought sounded like good casting): Of course, Smith might just have it all wrong. But it doesn't sound like it: My older brother yesterday asked me if I wanted to go see this with him in the theaters. I told him I was a little suspicious that this wouldn’t just be another Pearl Harbor and I’d wait a bit for reviews. I wonder what goofball they got to play Spruance. The old movie had Glenn Ford. That was gravitas. Jake Weber plays Spruance. Never heard of him. Maybe he did a great job. One commenter at NRO writes: Well. Okay. Maybe. Let me just say “Woody Harrelson as Chester Nimitz.” You first.
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 9:54:15 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Nov 12, 2019 9:54:15 GMT -8
The reviews I've seen have been favorable, even comparing the new version favorably to the 1976 version. Of course, it devotes more effort to setting things up, going back to a meeting in 1937 between Edwin Layton and Isoroku Yamamoto. The 1976 version starts with Rochefort reporting to Heston's character about the Japanese plans for what became the Battle of the Coral Sea.
One review says that Heston's character was based on Layton, though I don't think Layton was a flyer. A friend of mine said that Heston's fatal crash near the end was based on an actual event.
At one point, it looked like Midway would be a Japanese victory. They had fought off every attack without receiving any damage, knocking down most of the planes involved, and were about to launch their attack. Then, within just a few minutes, the dive bombers came down on 3 of their carriers (Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu), fatally damaging all 3.
Apparently, Ensign Gay (who as the sole survivor of Waldron's Torpedo Eight had a front-row seat at the destruction of the Japanese carriers) is a significant character in the new movie but without mentioning that he was the sole survivor of his attack. He also was sent back to Pearl Harbor after being picked up and gave Nimitz his first full report of the results. (Spruance and Fletcher hadn't reported back yet due to radio silence.) I found this out at the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, Texas.
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 10:09:58 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Nov 12, 2019 10:09:58 GMT -8
I don't think it is possible to understand either Midway picture until you have seen Tora, Tora, Tora. I,like Brad, find Harrelson hard to take in just about anything, although he did a really good job in the first season of True Detective and was good in Highwaymen. When he is challenged by better actors he does a better, more convincing job.
I've seen the previews and my impression is that the CGI is so evident that it takes on the feeling of another comic book movie. This is a disservice to the men who sacrificed to bring about victory. It is going to take some convincing for me to part with what amounts to $20 a person to see it. Maybe when its on HBO.
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 10:20:24 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Nov 12, 2019 10:20:24 GMT -8
I saw Tora, Tora, Tora when it came out, and again at a club meeting when we chose it among various videotapes (or more likely DVDs, but it's been a while). Elizabeth, of course, was able to follow along with the material in Japanese without needing the subtitles. Quite good, indeed.
Incidentally, I think the 1976 Midway owes something to that, at least in terms of tone. Note that it portrays the Japanese sympathetically and as competent professionals. I especially recall Nagumo's concern, as they kept shooting down the American attackers without being hit, that they were being prevented from attacking the American fleet.
By the way, the Japanese respected Nimitz, seeing him as a capable professional who (unlike Halsey) was not primarily motivated by hatred of them. The Nimitz museum included a Japanese tea garden, which I think was a gift from a Japanese group. Elizabeth rather appreciated that.
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Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 11:15:36 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 12, 2019 11:15:36 GMT -8
One of the difficulties here is that we all generally have pretty good tastes in movies. I’m honestly unsure if this new Midway is a typical modernist joke, a throwback picture, or something in between.
But Woody Harrelson as Nimitz? That’s a blatant clue as to what to expect. Still, if I ever do see this (and I certainly won’t be paying theatre prices), I’ll watch it, as always, with an open mind. Except for Harrelson. I mean, you can only belly-roll so far in giving a movie a fair chance.
My older brother loves the ’76 version of Midway even though one of his favorite running jokes is making fun of the line:
My brother (not without good cause) doubts that one of Nimitz’s right-hand men (at least as shown in the movie) would be ferrying planes. And I love the whole Japanese girlfriend subplot. It was a way to sensitively handle this aspect of the Pacific war. I love the line given by one of Matt’s friends (the former commanding officer of his son) that he meets in a bar:
But it was Democrats who interned the Japanese so that doesn’t count.
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Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 11:24:00 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 12, 2019 11:24:00 GMT -8
Yes. The tone of the movie is similar, for sure. It was a move away from outright boosterism (which I like as well) to something more objective. As Kyle rightly notes, the Zeitgeist of today is to show war as basically a splatter-film.
And there was that aspect as well in reality. Did Saving Private Ryan go too far in that regard? It certainly was attempting to show some realism. It had been typical for someone to receive, for example, a knife wound to the chest or belly and then the soldier would just fall down instantly dead. I think Artler could surely tell us that the realities were different.
But do we really want war movies to be turned into orgasmic phantasms of CGI, blood, and comic-book-goofballism? I’m not sure what to call Pearl Harbor in this regard. It’s been a while. It just seemed to be the pussification of war movies. If I had wanted to see From Here to Eternity (which is a great movie, and I love it) with “relationships” up the ying-yang, I’d watch the ones that were well done. Not counterfeit muck with Ben Affleck.
No one could play a noble rat bastard like Burt Lancaster. The exception is the Oscar-worthy performance of Kirk Douglas in In Harm’s Way. Douglas wasn’t nominated. But he should have been.
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Post by artraveler on Nov 12, 2019 11:51:53 GMT -8
I think Artler could surely tell us that the realities were different. The most intense combat I experienced was on the Golan in 73 where according to the CoS I was to only observe. I was told that the government of the US and the Government of the State of Israel would be very unhappy if I got killed or captured. No one asked me how I felt about it. The worst I ever saw was in Vietnam in 71. We raided a brothel that a PRC/VC was using to support his intelligence ops. He left behind 12 girls, none over maybe 18, tied to chairs with their throats cut. When we entered you could smell the blood and excrement and their faces were fixed in the horror of their deaths. It is impossible to describe the smell of violent death. The PRC agent who did this got away and stayed free until 2012. He did not die slowly enough or soon enough. CIA still gets their enemies even in this PC world.
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 12:00:28 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Nov 12, 2019 12:00:28 GMT -8
Oscar-worthy performance of Kirk Douglas in In Harm’s Way. Douglas wasn’t nominated. But he should have been. One of Douglas best roles was as Col Mike Marcus in Cast a Giant Shadow. A true story of Israel's first general in 2000 years. The film Also stars Frank Sinatra an John Wayne. These were the days when it was still ok to have a friendly view of Israel in Hollywood. Marcus was killed by friendly fire on the eve of the liberation of Jerusalem. There is a memorial on the highway leading into Jerusalem.
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Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 12, 2019 12:20:25 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 12, 2019 12:20:25 GMT -8
What a horrible thing to have to witness. I don’t think I’ve seen Cast a Giant Shadow. Sinatra, Wayne, Douglas, Brynner, Gordon Jackson, and Angie Dickinson. The cast certainly stacks up well.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Midway
Nov 16, 2019 16:19:56 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 16, 2019 16:19:56 GMT -8
My older brother saw Midway today and he liked it. But I would say I don't always share his taste in movies. We'll see.
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Midway
Nov 16, 2019 17:19:56 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Nov 16, 2019 17:19:56 GMT -8
I suppose much depends on what he liked about it. It certainly has been praised by people who would want a serious look at the miraculous victory. I get the impression, though, that it fails to convey how amazing this was.
Incidentally, I decided to check a bit further on the Pendleton rescue. It turns out the total dead numbered 9, but that includes 8 on the bow, which Webber didn't and perhaps couldn't rescue them from. A week later they were able to check and find a single dead body on it. The other loss was a cook who bravely helped others get away, but was hit by the ship when he jumped into the water to be picked up. The wind blew the ship against him. Webber's ship had a capacity of 12, which makes his rescue of 32 especially remarkable.
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Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 16, 2019 19:51:51 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 16, 2019 19:51:51 GMT -8
He didn't think the CGI was over the top. Some negative reviews that I've read mentioned this. And he said there were several tear-jerker emotion moments. He also said that the pacing and build-up in the original 1976 movie was far superior.
He didn't mind Woody as Nimitz but, boy, I have to admit I won't be coming in with a good attitude about that.
"The Finest Hours" did not at all follow what was happening on the bow of the ship. If they did, it was so quick that I missed it.
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Midway
Nov 16, 2019 20:11:32 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Nov 16, 2019 20:11:32 GMT -8
The promos I saw for Midway showed a scene in which one sailor approached a girl friend behind a chain-link fence, which makes one think of the sailor in the original with a difficulty in "enemy recognition". This may be based on an actual occurrence, or maybe they just liked that idea in the original movie and repeated it. In reality, Japanese-Americans were generally loyal, as the Nisei regiment in Italy proved. The Japanese consul in Honolulu was dismayed that he couldn't get any local help spying on Pearl Harbor right before the war.
For that matter, if Iva Toguri had been willing to become a Japanese citizen (they gave her a lot of pressure to do that when she was stuck there during the war) she would never have faced treason charges -- which were mistaken anyway, but that's another matter. (I did a biography of her for Salem Press's volume on noted Asian-Americans.)
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Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 17, 2019 8:04:32 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 17, 2019 8:04:32 GMT -8
Not my problem. That was the work of the great Franklin Roosevelt. Still, given what just happened, it was an understandable reaction. Given just how evil the Japanese were during that era, it’s hard to blame FDR for being cautious. But I really like that subplot from the 1976 movie. I thought it was intelligently handled. And Heston showed how good he was as an actor by making us feel his discomfort as he squirms through command trying to handle this very difficult situation. I may watch this new version if it ever comes to one of the streaming services that I subscribe to. But Woody Harrelson as Admiral Nimitz? Don’t make me laugh. No….wait. I sort of like laughing at that.
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Midway
Nov 17, 2019 9:58:31 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Nov 17, 2019 9:58:31 GMT -8
Note that the Japanese population of Hawaii was generally left undisturbed, though no doubt they were investigating to make sure there were no traitors. (This issue came up in Michener's Hawaii. One of his later characters was a Japanese-American who fought in Italy, and was surprised to come home and find that his parents supported Japan, though that mainly meant listening to and believing Japanese propaganda broadcasts.) The removals were from the West coast, where they weren't as critical to the economy, there was a lot of prejudice against them (this is why they made sure the plane bringing Iva Toguri back from Japan landed first -- where the trial against her would be held -- in San Francisco rather than Hawaii), and there was also the (very theoretical) threat of Japanese military operations.
These (and especially the last point) help explain why there was no mass incarceration of Germans and Italians. There was no danger of an Axis landing, and their one attempt at a sabotage campaign (Operation Pastorius in the summer of 1942) proved to be hapless. Britain was different, for obvious reasons, interning Germans (most of them anti-Nazis, but in 1940 they weren't taking chances) and British Fascists such as Oswald Mosley. Pauline Glen Winslow's Brandenburg Hotel is set at an internment facility late in the war. This was definitely no Dachau.)
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Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 18, 2019 9:24:48 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2019 9:24:48 GMT -8
Wiki states: I wasn’t aware that so little of the internment was regarding Hawaiians of Japanese ancestry. Again, we were fighting for our lives so I’m going to cut FDR some slack. But the interment suggests either racial bigotry (again, regarding what the Japs were doing, not without much justification) or very poor security in and around West Coast military bases. It seems to me tightening internal security would have been a better answer then just throwing them out of the state. In 1988, Reagan signed into law a reparations bill that gave not only an apology from the government but $20,000 to each camp survivor. Given what we know that Imperial Japan did during the war, again, I don’t come down hard on Roosevelt. We were fighting pure evil and there was some unfortunate fallout. I like the way this was handled in the original Midway film. Heston says about Haruko Sakura’s parents: Part of the justification for their internment was the radical publications that her father subscribed to. Haruko says loyalty to an old boss was the reason he subscribed to them. And I’m thinking that then and there was the problem. Yes, on paper, her parents were no threat to national security. But isn’t it obvious that this sense of Japanese honor and loyalty could be problematic? Yes, it’s just a magazine subscription, but I don’t think you have to be paranoid to see a problem there. But that battle has been lost. McCarthyism, Orwell’s book-burning 1984, and the Marxist infiltration of higher education has laid the moral framework for the idea that to be subversive is the greatest trait of true Americanism. Nearly every film Hollywood has produced in the last 50 years has shown that the good guys always are the subversives and the bad guys are the traditionalists. The former are always some form of Attitcus Finch. The latter are always some form of Ebenezer Scrooge. So I’ll grant that the argument has been lost. Witness the open borders. This stems directly from the inability of decent people to defend basic principles and boundaries. The “open” society is the ideal, the one where there is no judmentalism, no witch is ever burnt in a hysterical Salem, and all beliefs are accepted as equally valid. I’ve just perfectly described modern liberalism, or at least a big portion of it. The ugly reality is that if you attempt to equalize all things, in order to do so you must start calling bad things good and good things bad. And that is exactly what has happened. So, yeah, I don’t get too bent out of shape that FDR made some tough decisions when this country was literally fighting for its life in a world full of Nazis and Imperial Japanese fanatics.
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Midway
Nov 18, 2019 10:04:28 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Nov 18, 2019 10:04:28 GMT -8
I suspect the Hawaiian approach to security was the right one. A small percentage of Japanese were truly suspicious (and even most of them probably weren't actual threats, but perhaps they could have been under the wrong circumstances), but most were loyal to America.
Note that FDR was hardly the only person pushing the internment. It had a lot of local support, such as from California Attorney General Earl Warren. (Some may find that ironic.) The issue may well have gotten him elected Governor in 1942, from which position he became the GOP VP nominee in 1948 (who failed to carry his home state) and a favorite son presidential candidate in 1952 before going to SCOTUS (one of the biggest mistakes Eisenhower made, though maybe not quite as bad as naming William Brennan a little later, if only because Brennan lasted longer on the Court).
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Post by artraveler on Nov 18, 2019 10:14:00 GMT -8
So, yeah, I don’t get too bent out of shape that FDR made some tough decisions when this country was literally fighting for its life in a world full of Nazis and Imperial Japanese fanatics. On one hand I do agree, however, FDR was a racist, anti-Semite who should not have been in office in 1941. He did possess enough leadership skills to guide the country to victory. The fireside chats were largely responsible for his success. Much like Trump rallies and tweets he went directly to the people. A technique every successful American president has followed since Washington. The failure presidents have been those who didn't trust the people, especially in the 20th century, Wilson, Hoover, Carter, both Bush, and Obama all show the history of not trusting the American people. The current impeachment circus is a prime example of the destine political elites hold for the people.
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Brad Nelson
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Midway
Nov 18, 2019 10:34:35 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Nov 18, 2019 10:34:35 GMT -8
My grandfather on my mother’s side did not like FDR, to put it mildly. There may have been Roosevelt Derangement Syndrome even before Trump Derangement Syndrome. But in this case, I think his fears were justified. There is nothing to fear but a big, intrusive, nanny-state government.
It’s interesting that Jews were largely an accepted part of the pre-war (and during-war) South. And now Democrats are clearly aligned with anti-Semitic forces.
Country Club Republicans were arguably not Jew-friendly as well. Mr. Kung will no doubt say that cries of anti-Semitism are sometimes like crying wolf (and I would agree), but just like paranoids…sometime people are really out to get you.
Now Jews are their own worst enemy, letting their hatred for Christians overwhelm them as they vote for the clearly anti-Semitic Democrat Party.
But the Jews killed Jesus. I wonder how many Christians truly understand that Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian, and if he is taken at his word in Matthew 5:17:
That doesn’t quite sound like the “hope and change” of Obama who is going to usher in a new and perfect system. Out with the old, in with the new. Nor does this sound like most televangelists, Jim Jones, or the Marxist Pope.
The separation of Judaism and Christianity can be counted as a philosophical, moral, theological, and/or political effect. But it is not justified according to the Bible. Both Jews and Christians are now lost in the wilderness….if the doctrine is true.
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Post by timothylane on Nov 18, 2019 10:59:26 GMT -8
Jews were part of the FDR coalition, though he had little use for them. (Nor did he care for the various anti-British ethnicities, such as the Germans, Italians, and especially Irish, no matter how many voted for him. He was a staunch anglophile despite his distant Dutch heritage.)
One side of my family tree favored the Demagogues and the other the GOP, so I suspect they divided on that basis. Elizabeth mentioned that one relative who disliked FDR was asked by another (this was in 1940 or maybe 1944), "Would you change a horse in mid-stream?" Her response was, "I would if I were riding a jackass.")
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