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Waco
Apr 19, 2020 13:20:00 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Apr 19, 2020 13:20:00 GMT -8
Waco
This is a Netflix six-part series on the 51-day crisis at the Branch Davidian compound in 1993. The series begins, not in Waco TX, but in Northern Idaho, Ruby Ridge a year earlier. In both cases two law enforcement agencies of the US government were involved, ATF (alcohol, tobacco and firearms) and FBI, federal bureau of investigation.
The series is not a fluff piece for either agency. ATF and FBI made major mistakes in both cases. It could easily be said that Waco is an apologia for the actions of Randy Weaver and David Koresh. Waco is based on books written by two of the participants, A Place Called Waco, by David Thibodeaux and Stalling for Time by Gary Noesner. Thibodeau survived the fire and his account is principally the only insider account of the 51 days. Noesner was the FBI negotiator on the scene at both Ruby Ridge and Waco.
Regardless of your opinion of end of days religion and the people attracted to these groups they have the same rights as Presbyterians, Baptists and every other American. After 25 years the truth about Ruby Ridge and Waco is that the federal government in the form of the ATF and FBI dramatically overreacted in both cases and innocent people died, a large number of them children.
In light of the excesses of the James Comey FBI after 911. How hard is it to imagine a federal agency out of control more interested in it’s political and public face then admitting to the truth? I have difficulty believing that David Koresh is the innocent leader of a fringe religion without an agenda except going to heaven. However, I doubt children were being abused in the compound, that has the ring of propaganda released by FBI. I also doubt that the Branch Davidians were so driven by end of days theology that they would commit mass suicide with their children. It just doesn’t pass the smell test.
Until such time as the FBI and ATF actually come clean with proof other then, trust us were the federal government. We should assume that the story presented in Waco, and in the books written about the sieges at Ruby Ridge and Waco have a greater element of truth then the official version. The FBI has a lot of credibility to make up as does the entire Department of Justice. Perhaps, until we finely get some truth, we should address the Department of Justice with a question mark---D o J?
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Waco
Apr 19, 2020 13:48:08 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Apr 19, 2020 13:48:08 GMT -8
It is interesting to note that after the assault at Ruby Ridge was over and Weaver went to trial, he was acquitted of all counts except a bail violation which had to do with missing a court appearance. He also went after the government and received a settlement of over US$3 million.
The sniper who killed Weaver's wife is named Lon Horiuchi. He was indicted on manslaughter, but a judge threw this out citing the "supremacy" clause of the constitution. He was again indicted, but while under indictment, a local election was held and the D.A. who was pursuing Horiuchi lost. The next D.A. decided not to pursue him.
Horiuchi was also at the Waco criminal debacle and one FBI agent claimed he heard Horiuchi shooting from a house the FBI had occupied to view the Dravidian compound. Of course, the agent later said he was "mis-quoted."
Timothy McVeigh originally keyed in on Horiuchi, passing out Horiuchi's address and telephone to people in the hope that they would harass or possibly kill Horiuchi. Later McVeigh decided to bomb the Oklahoma City Federal Building. He should have concentrated on Horiuchi.
The FBI is a criminal organization. That is not to say everyone in it is a criminal, but the top administrators are clearly criminals and have been for a long time. The field agents can be as good as the want, but if they take and obey criminal orders they are criminals and advancing a criminal organization. This should not surprise anyone as it it the way of the world. Those people who rise to the top in most organizations are not very moral and those who rise to the top in government bureaucracies are generally moral slugs. I vaguely recall dealing with some government officials in business in Asia and they were the most dishonest bums you could imagine. Their promises meant zero.
The same can be said of most politicians, but we have the opportunity to displace them every few years. The same cannot be said of our bureaucrats and this is why I find the bureaucracy more dangerous than the politicians. It is also why I think the idea of term limits is not only foolish but dangerous because it gives those who pursue limits a false sense of security. Without some new politicians rousting the bureaucrats every now and then, we would be in an even worse situation. And we need to constantly pursue corruption in the bureaucracy.
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Waco
Apr 19, 2020 13:54:21 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Apr 19, 2020 13:54:21 GMT -8
In light of the excess of state and local government over the last 6 weeks how can we possibly even consider the notion that FBI and ATF are not out of control?
Government is like toilets it needs to be flushed after every poop.
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Waco
Apr 19, 2020 13:57:48 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Apr 19, 2020 13:57:48 GMT -8
Although the BAT force got the ball rolling at Ruby Ridge, the trespassing police (they didn't bring an arrest warrant with them, and started the shooting by killing the Weavers' dog) were federal marshals. After that the FBI took over, which led to the murder of Vicki Weaver (considered the more determined of the adult Weavers) by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi. (He fired through a door with no idea who might be behind it -- except it wasn't Randy Weaver, and hit Vicki while she was holding their baby.)
When I first vaguely heard about Ruby Ridge, it seemed to be just another case of someone shooting at the police and refusing to surrender. Later I read about it in Reason and a couple of books, and found out that the situation was very different.
Koresh was a religious kook (so was Weaver, actually), but it's dubious that he committed any federal crime. (His interesting sexual views may have led to child abuse, but even if so that's a state crime and therefore has nothing to do with either the BAT force or the FBI.) He had been delaying, and one could understand the FBI's frustration, but the nature of his promises at the end left some people thinking that this time he really was about to surrender very soon. But the FBI were typical secularist sorts (as one expects to find in the Behemoth these days) and incapable of understanding Koresh.
Note that the final assault on the Waco compound was April 19 -- the anniversary of Lexington and Concord, the 1861 Baltimore riot against the 6th Massachusetts as it marched through the city from one railway station to another, and the beginning of the Warsaw ghetto uprising in 1943. Joseph Major once wrote a parody of Jurgen Stroop's report on the latter applied to Waco.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 19, 2020 14:06:30 GMT -8
Not only the FBI and ATF.
This is why I cut Trump more slack that Brad does. No other president in my life has lifted a finger against the institutional corruption in our country the way Trump has. His mere act of going around the bureaucracy is revolutionary. Wrong or right, I don't particularly care as long as the action is anti-institution. All government institutions need to be shaken up.
If anyone doubts that this is why Trump is so hated, I suggest you think again. He is a threat to all the established cliques in D.C., New York and most state capitals. He is driving the elites in the military crazy as he clearly cares more about the regular G.I., Marine and Sailor than about the Chiefs of Staff and establishing a new world order. He has not been bought by the Saudis or China, unlike every president since Bush 1.
I hope that Trump, wittingly or not, is bringing some "creative destruction" to our government and political institutions. I don't hope for much, but anything is better than the road we have been on.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 19, 2020 14:09:23 GMT -8
And today, we need larger than normal drains.
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Waco
Apr 19, 2020 14:18:24 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Apr 19, 2020 14:18:24 GMT -8
It is a job for roto-rooter
Surely, Brad has a limerick here
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 20, 2020 18:20:39 GMT -8
I may be slow, but I get there in the end.
’Twas a government of, by and for Patriots paid for at Lex and Concord Until atheism merged With the Leftism urge Upon people the Federals warred
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Waco
Apr 20, 2020 19:10:18 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Apr 20, 2020 19:10:18 GMT -8
And meanwhile, today is another anniversary appropriate to the Waco holocaust and many recent events. On April 20, 1889, Adolf Hitler was born in the Austrian border town of Branau on the Inn.
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Waco
Apr 20, 2020 21:11:39 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Apr 20, 2020 21:11:39 GMT -8
We have celebrated a true patriot's and republican's birthday, February 22nd for close to two centuries. Unfortunately, it is looking like Hitler's or Marx's is becoming more appropriate for many of our compatriots.
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Post by timothylane on Apr 20, 2020 21:12:48 GMT -8
Not to mention Lenin's birthday aka Earth Day.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
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Waco
Apr 21, 2020 9:17:42 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 21, 2020 9:17:42 GMT -8
I watched the first episode of this and then a few minutes of the second. I’m surprised that Netflix offers a series that isn’t total crap. This is pretty good so far. It’s early, but you can tell this isn’t made by goofballs.
Before analyzing this, it’s best to state a principle first so that I don’t muddle my way to any conclusions that were already waiting in the wings:
• The Federal government (not the Constitution) is illegitimate as it no longer relies heavily enough upon the consent of the governed and is highly extra-Constitutional.
The real PR problem is that most of the news events, or the portrayal of anti-government types in TV series such as this, portray anyone opposed to government’s overreaches as wackos. And I’m not saying there aren’t wackos out there. But I consider it an entirely legitimate position that the Federal government has traveled far past the consent of the governed and needs to be reigned in. I also consider it a moral position to peacefully (at this point) oppose its diktats. (And those of the individual states as we’re seeing right now in this illegal crackdown based on ramp-up fears of what will likely turn out to be an average-to-severe flu.)
That said, oh boy, what an interesting look inside both the David Koresh cult and the FBI/ATF cult.
I like the FBI negotiator character. He warns his bosses about the militarizing of the FBI. He basically says, “If you have all that hardware, you’re going to use it, drowning out any less violent methods that are available.”
He’s right, of course. I think this series is based on this guy’s book. But I was unaware that anyone in the FBI had voiced this concern.
And there’s little doubt that the ATF looks like a bunch of clowns and indeed should be de-funded. At first glance, anyway. And the way this series presents it, the ATF is very much looking forward to a confrontation at Waco as a way to burnish their public image, especially after their debacle at Ruby Ridge. They even have a c-word public relations expert (reminds me of Whitmer) in the loop at the top all ready in regards to taking advantage of a hopeful photo op of ATF agents rescuing children from the religious nuts.
At play here are at least three things that I can see offhand: The institutional hostility against religion (these guys would have raided the Puritan villages); a desire to beat-back any competitor to their power (it really freaks them out if someone is well-armed, even if the guns are legally acquired); and in the short term here, they’re looking for a public relations triumph.
“Deep State” is another word for the cult of government and all the ills these power-mongers have. We can discuss more on that later but I think we’re all fairly of the same mind about that.
Regarding David Koresh, the first thing that comes to mind is: How can I start a cult whereby everyone else has to hand over their women so that I can have sex with them?
Honestly, that’s not what I want. But Koresh had to have had P.T. Barnum’s notion in mind: “There’s a sucker born every minute.” Granted, we can debate his sincerity. Perhaps he really was receiving special guidance from God. Maybe he was a prophet of some type. Still, how convenient to have a revelation that allows you to have several wives and to have sex with the wives of everyone else — while all the men are to remain celibate. Nice work if you can get it.
As Dennis Prager might note, one of the primary things the Torah revealed was a god who was not a mere fertility God as so many are. Many cults and religions before (and after) had sex as central to God’s very being. But in the Torah, we have a God who is, for all intents and purposes, sexless.
So it’s a pretty good sign that if someone’s “revelation” is basically to enact his own personal sex cult, you can be pretty sure it’s not bible-based. But, again, nice work if you can get it. It’s amazing how people fall for these con artists. I thought most interesting was the story of the (doctor?) who was making a good living and had a house on the beach in Hawaii with his wife. But as he announced in a group meeting, still it was not enough…so he somehow joins up with Koresh.
I’ll grant you that Koresh is a smooth talker. Would any of us here fall for that? Maybe. We are all wounded in some way and if approached in a seemingly sympathetic way, I think it’s possible. Maybe (for sake of argument, anyway). But what separates the sincere religious believer from the overt huckster from sincere (if destructive) cult-mindedness? I’m going to assume, for this latter of the three categories, that it is indeed possible for one to be sincere even if extremely cult-minded and creepy.
I don’t know. A lot of people fall for a lot of things. I don’t think the antidote is unbelief (lest you fall into that Chesterton truism of “Not believing in god means you’ll believe in anything”). And I can guarantee you that 99.5% of Netflix viewers who watch this will take home the message that all religious belief is fundamentally flawed and is only a degree of separation from David Koresh.
I disagree with that, obviously. But I think in a show such as this, David Koresh did no favors for reasonable believers just as the FBI/ATF did no favors for limited, Constitutional government.
Looking forward to watching more and hoping this holds together. Home viewers can get my commentary early by signing up to: yourdaughtersandwiveshavingsexwithbrad@niceworkifyoucanget it.com. We'll soon be publishing an email newsletter as well for a nominal fee.
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Waco
Apr 21, 2020 9:40:40 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Apr 21, 2020 9:40:40 GMT -8
It should be noted that the Branch Davidians (an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventists, themselves an offshoot of the Millerites) were organized in the 1920s. Koresh got where he did because of his knowledge of the Bible. Once he became the leader, he did take an interesting (and very typical) advantage of his status. No doubt this is why the FBI considered him a total charlatan.
For example, when some children were let out the FBI showed them getting Fun Meals at McDonald's, which the children no doubt enjoyed. They meant well, but being ignorant of the religion they were dealing with, they didn't know that the Branch Davidians followed Jewish dietary restrictions, such as the ban on mixing dairy products and meat. This didn't encourage them to release additional children.
As best I can tell, the BAT force in their original assault on the compound came in shooting and using flashbangs without even giving them a chance to surrender (though I doubt they would have). Also, the Branch Davidians knew they were coming because the BAT force spy -- who had largely been converted to their cult -- had told them. (They knew he was a spy and never did anything to him.)
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Waco
Apr 21, 2020 10:11:48 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Apr 21, 2020 10:11:48 GMT -8
Can I get in on this?
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
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Waco
Apr 21, 2020 12:20:49 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 21, 2020 12:20:49 GMT -8
Yes. It's always been understood the Kung & Nelson was a partnership even as we branched out into new lines of work . . . if you can call it work.
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Post by artraveler on Apr 21, 2020 13:10:17 GMT -8
Brad and I are on the same page regarding Waco and Netflix. If I were looking for producers to give a fair view of any religious group, the good folks at Netflix would be far down the list.
Koresh, like all charismatic leaders, regardless of religious affiliation, or lack of one, does exploit those in the group. The form of exploration varies, for some it is sex, for others money, or power. For Koresh the goal is his idea of heaven, for FBI and ATF it is power. I think the paths of of Koresh and the leadership of the federal agencies are complementary and the series subtly draws this comparison out. The series has a greater ring of truth than the official account by the Feds. Perhaps, I just want to give Koresh a break, but the initial raid by ATF and the subsequent final assault by FBI were designed to dramatically over react to the situation.
I know this much, I would have been just as puzzled as Koresh seemed to be that first day before the shooting started, but once it started I would have responded the same.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
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Waco
Apr 21, 2020 15:52:01 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 21, 2020 15:52:01 GMT -8
I love the ATF (or FBI) guys who've set up shot right across the street from the compound. One of the agents is (presumably) trying to blend in in order to find their collection of guns. Meantime, Koresh knows exactly who he is (although at first he was a bit opaque). Despite that, his plan is to love-bomb him into the cult. He thinks he can turn him. And it seems as if it may be working. Or is the agent just playing along in order to get close?
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Waco
Apr 21, 2020 16:28:47 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Apr 21, 2020 16:28:47 GMT -8
This would be the spy I mentioned. From what I've read, he really wasn't faking it. David Koresh had his flaws, but in his own way he really believed in his message. That's why the previous Branch Davidian leader named him as her successor.
Incidentally, tiny as the Branch Davidians were, they still had a schism, which led to disputes over who had the right to their compound. The other group held it for a while, and apparently the claim of a "drug nexus" at the compound dates back to the group that Koresh took the compound from.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
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Waco
Apr 22, 2020 7:54:59 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 22, 2020 7:54:59 GMT -8
As presented in the series, he never was much of a spy. They soused him out as not-who-he-said-he-was as soon as they met him. But Koresh relished the chance of trying to turn him. The plot slowed down in episode two. There wasn’t all that much going on. It looks as if episode three might kick up the action I’ve seen other shows or documentaries on cults. There’s obviously the Guyana Tragedy: The Story of Jim Jones which I think was made-for-TV and did a good job of showing what a cultish commune was like. As Koresh tries to turn Agent Jacob Vazquez, we can see the power of the cult. In a world that is normally dog-eat-dog (which is, ironically, why some people love pets…the only animals who unconditionally love you), acceptance, belonging, a sense of purpose, a sense of sins forgiven, a sense of hope, can be a powerful drug. But from what I understand, although some religious cults (such as some of the old various Roman cults) could last quite a while, it is almost unheard of for cultish communes to ever last. The promise is there, and it’s very attractive. But they all seem to fall apart…some of them quite explosively (with or without the help of the FBI or ATF). I love the scenes in Easy Rider, for example, that give you a glimpse into a commune and yet the picture comes to the conclusion that it is unworkable. To a large extent, that is the attraction of socialism. It promises to bypass the dog-eat-dog world we live in and softly anoint everyone with a nurturing and caring government in which we are all “equal.” Some are always more equal than others, of course, such as we see with David Koresh. Whether this is the rot that always brings down communes, I don’t know. But I don’t think it helps.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
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Waco
Apr 22, 2020 9:24:05 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 22, 2020 9:24:05 GMT -8
The shooting gets under way in episode three and it’s really just all too much. True or not, there’s something disconcerting watching this for entertainment purposes. I had to switch of over to Gardener’s World.
I may skip through the massacre and watch the aftermath.
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