Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 13, 2020 20:19:18 GMT -8
The Henry rifle I have weight about 5-1/2 lbs. unloaded. It feels like a solid chuck of steel.
I'll let you know what I figure out for a backdrop for my indoor shooting range. I have some experience in this because I had one set up for my pellet gun at one time. Arguably the pellet gun with 7 or 8 pumps is going to have the kinetic energy of these subsonic bullets, especially the 29 grain CB 22 Long. I wouldn't really want to be shot with it. But it may be more on par with a pellet gun. Even so, I used quite a few layers of paper and a phone book with a wood backing and nothing penetrated that when shooting pellets, even the pointed ones. Target-shooting pellets have a flat edge, presumable to make a nice even tear on the target where it hits.
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Post by artraveler on Jun 13, 2020 20:57:49 GMT -8
If you want to just practice and plink almost any American 22 LR is good. However, for self defense, unless you are an expert with the 22 and can make head and leg shots while under fire. Always assume your opponent is wearing body armor. Even cheap body armor will stop 22 LR. A 22 LR will do sufficient damage to incapacitate a bad guy if you hit and artery. The same goes for the 22 pistol or revolver but a shorter distances.
For all round self defense rifle I recommend a 30.06 carbine, again any American make will b suitable and lever action, bolt, pump or semi-auto. I do wish I still had my father's M-1. Don't even think of sniper ranges for sighting in 100 yards is perfect. If you need the weapon it will be at 100 yards or less. Remember, you are not buying a weapon for fun. The intent is that when you use it you are going to take a life defending yourself or someone close by.
There are a lot of very good quality pistols on the market and if you want to put a lot of lead downrange very quickly the Colt 1911 is a good choice, but it is heavy as are most of the other police or military weapons. Open carry is almost a necessity for the larger weapons. I like the Rugar SLR 38 special +p it has the advantages of easy carry open or concealed and the +p gives enough stopping power almost comparable to the standard 357.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 13, 2020 21:04:34 GMT -8
Between a fly swatter and a bazooka, at least I have something. The shells my friend gave me are hollow point ones. But I read on the internet that those are basically useless. You’re lucky just to penetrate the clothing with a normal bullet, so any hope of a bullet tearing through flesh are likely just a factor of a marketing gimmick. But I don’t know for sure. What do you think?
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Post by artraveler on Jun 13, 2020 22:09:54 GMT -8
Do you know the exact location of the femoral artery and could you hit it under stress with a 22 LR?. If the answer is no, it would be for me even when I was on the line daily, that kind of accuracy is only for the movies. Decide if you can handle a fire fight and then decide how you are going to carry, open or concealed. If you opt for open carry then a large caliber 9 mill, 357 or 45 are all good choices. A leg or arm shot will disable a bad guy and hollow points are more likely to get an artery. If some one is firing at me. I am going to to my best to kill them and bleeding out is as good as a head shot. The 22 handgun is only good for two things, target practice and assignation, two in the back of the head at 6 inches will do it.
I take two options. the first intimidation and there is nothing more intimidating than a large caliber weapon on your hip, but it is bound to get you talked about. If you decide that concealed is the better option, you just want to feel comfortable having dinner with friends than something smaller, lighter and more easily concealed, a 38 special short barrel is a good choice. they are light, generally about 1 pound loaded and the 5-6 rounds are enough to get you out of a bad situation if you haven't gone looking for one. The important thing to remember is the bad guy is not used to being fired at and will take cover. This is your chance to run, don't walk to safety. I personally favor the revolver. It has fewer moving parts and with good care can last several lifetimes. My 45 colt was my father's and was made in 1921 and is still a reliable weapon.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 14, 2020 8:04:27 GMT -8
This guy is pretty well known for his YouTube videos about guns. I enjoyed this one about the Civil War Enfield Rifle and Cartridges.
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Post by timothylane on Jun 14, 2020 8:45:45 GMT -8
When Elizabeth and I visited the Chickamauga battlefield back in 1997, there was a demonstration of firing a musket while we were at the visitor's center. Of course, we also saw plenty of that in the "re-enactment" battle we attended at a local War of the Rebellion fort we visited on our way back from the Patton Museum at Fort Knox one Memorial Day, but there no one was explaining it.
The Stone's River battlefield visitor's center had a video one could watch of shooting a cannon from one firing to the next.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 14, 2020 9:30:48 GMT -8
Yes, I realize you consider the .22 under-powered. Here’s an article with an opinion on the most powerful .22 ammo: What Are The Most Powerful 22lr AmmunitionAccording to this, the CCI Stinger with a muzzle velocity of 1640 fps. On their website they’re listed as currently unavailable. This guy has a YouTube video on the subject of the most lethal .22 LR round. If you’re being overrun by chickens and cantaloupe, you’re certainly good. The winner is the CCI Segmented HP 22 LR and/or the CCI Mini-Mag 22 LR SHP. But I can’t find availability for either on their web site. CCI does have the Mini-Map HP 22 LR listed as available but it doesn’t mention it being segmented. Here’s a guy who likes a .22 as a self-defense weapon: Another option may be the CCI Velocitor 22 LR. Here’s a guy doing some tests with it: |
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jun 14, 2020 10:49:34 GMT -8
I enjoyed those two videos on .22 Long Rifle shooting. The test at 300 yards, frankly, amazed me.
Those good old boys are the type I want on my side when the nuts from Antifa and elsewhere come calling.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 14, 2020 10:53:45 GMT -8
One good old boy with a gun has got to be worth a dozen Antifa beta males.
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Post by timothylane on Jun 14, 2020 11:19:14 GMT -8
The problem is that in Bakuningrad on Puget Sound there are far more than a dozen Antifa beta males, and as far as I can tell no good old boys with guns. I doubt New Mogadishu, New Woke City, Babylon on the Bay, or Hollyweird and the City of the Devils are any better.
Incidentally, Mark Twain included a scene in Huckleberry Finn that makes the same point, when a man angered by the abuse a local drunkard gave him shot him after warning that he would take the abuse up to a specific time. A lynch mob came after him, which he confronted with a gun (which in the antebellum days would have been a single-shot weapon) and faced them down, pointing out that they had failed to bring a man with them. (He said they had half a man, but that wasn't enough.)
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Post by artraveler on Jun 14, 2020 12:12:18 GMT -8
Here’s a guy who likes a .22 as a self-defense weapon: Ok, his solution is the ability to put a lot of lead downrange. I can concede that, even admire it, but in a combat situation where you have to use a handgun you're not likely to be able to put 100 rounds anywhere near the bad guy. The important thing is you don't want to engage, you want to be the speck on the horizon and someone saying---who dat. In the other video they were shooting at 300 yards and did you notice him mention driftage due to wind as 55 inches. A bad guy is not going to sit still at 300 yards waiting for you to make adjustments. They are firing at you with lets say an AK-47 and wearing body armor so the few shots that strike body mass just stick in the armor and in less than 20 seconds they are in your position filling you with 7.63 hollow points at 10 feet. I fully support the idea of engaging bad guys at range, but to do so you must have a weapon capable of doing the work at that distance. The weapon I used on Golan in 73 was a Uzi chambered for 9mm parabellum. It is an excellent weapon but does not have stopping power at distance, over 300 yards. I would have been content with my father's M-1 30.06 but I went to war with what I had not what I wished I had. |
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jun 14, 2020 14:42:10 GMT -8
True enough, but if one is at close range, aiming at a home invader, the best thing one can do is hit the target one is aiming at, even if it is with a small caliber round. More often than not, people miss what they are aiming at when they use a pistol. Trying to hit someone farther away than 20 feet with a snub nose is difficult, particularly if the weapon kicks, like most .38s or larger do. A .22 should have virtually no kick so at least one should be able to keep pointing the weapon toward the target. As I recall, I have seen some 10 or 12 shot .22 revolvers which should give one a chance.
Of course, if one practices with a pistol, I think a .38 special is the minimum caliber to use. I like you +P pistol. Small but powerful.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 14, 2020 17:00:02 GMT -8
Clearly that little experiment was about what the bullet could do at 300 yards and not that 300 yards was the practical range.
I like what this one commenter said: “This debate of .22 lr lethality always cracks me up because kill or no kill most humans don't like to be shot at and in an engagement or home intrusion most people aren't going to stand around and try to figure out what rounds your shooting. Because of this .22 is just as psychologically effective as .223 and much cheaper.”
Several other factors come into play for me:
• I don’t want to go deaf (or lose significant hearing) by firing something more powerful.
• I want to enjoy the gun for target shooting. Being able to do that indoors from time to time with inexpensive ammo is a yuge plus.
• I don’t really want to break the little buggers in half. Nor would I be so foolish as to just try to wing them (although that could be an option depending upon the situation). But there’s no taking back a .45 slug, so to speak. It’s a major commitment in carnage…and thus I’m less likely to use it if I have to.
• For purposes of Antifa, I’m not sure where you ever got the idea that I would be engaging them at long range. I would expect due to my circumstances that they would be within fifty feet or less. I have several angles on the second floor that I could shoot down on the little buggers if need be from the comfort of a chair. Shoot. Reload. Shoot. I’ll show your info to my brother. He may want to get a more powerful handgun like his son already owns.
• Given that I would be in the position of defending a black church, I wouldn’t be particularly squeamish about shooting the little buggers. I wouldn’t expect much blowback in these parts for defending a black church from looters.
By the way, they had their first service today in about three months. They had all kinds of social distancing malarky that they held to. But it’s a start. We could certainly use the steady revenue stream.
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Post by artraveler on Jun 15, 2020 7:01:16 GMT -8
Brad,
I am not arguing that a 22 LR can be a deadly weapon or that in a close combat situation it is a useful tool. You have listed good reason for the 22 LR and of course, if that is what you have making the best of it. I personally like the idea of putting a lot of fire downrange to keep the bad guys away. However, federal law will not allow me to mount M-2 50 cal on my roof and setting up with the Mack Duce is bound to get you talked about in a restaurant.
It is impossible to carry everything you might need in every situation. So, stay with the 22 LR if that makes you comfortable at work and home. However, when in public I suggest you consider a more potent weapon that is concealable there are a lot of choices from 38 special to 357 mag. In today's world the chances a bad guy is wearing body armor is very high, at short ranges the 22 LR does not have the power to penetrate armor.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 15, 2020 8:03:35 GMT -8
Take a look at hickok45 doing a presentation on the 1860 Henry Rifle.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 15, 2020 8:06:42 GMT -8
Baby steps. For out and about, I would definitely consider something more powerful. Right now I have something I can stick out the window and put four or five shots into the Antifa thug who is trying to break in or otherwise is being menacing.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 15, 2020 9:50:22 GMT -8
I did go ahead and order these items: • Real Avid Bore Boss• Hoppe’s 9 Gun Bore Cleaner• Break Free CLP cleaner/lubricant/preservative • NcStar Gun Case. And as soon as the subsonic ammo arrives from CCI, I’ll set up an indoor range. That is, I’ll figure out something to shoot at that won’t go through any doors, walls, or refrigerators. But I’m guessing I likely have shot pellets at higher speeds. But I’ll start out with something fairly robust. Likely it will be a target taped to the front of a cardboard box. The box will be filled will perhaps reams of unused paper. Inside and at the back of the box will be a board. Outside of and behind the box itself will be a fairly heavy hunk of steel I have sitting around. I may set that up now and try my pellet gun on it. I’ve made my own, but you can find some downloadable targets here. I like some of what they’ve done so I may use some of those as well. |
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Post by kungfuzu on Jun 15, 2020 9:53:41 GMT -8
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 15, 2020 10:57:17 GMT -8
And as soon as the subsonic ammo arrives from CCI, I’ll set up an indoor range. That is, I’ll figure out something to shoot at that won’t go through any doors, walls, or refrigerators. But I’m guessing I likely have shot pellets at higher speeds. But I’ll start out with something fairly robust. Likely it will be a target taped to the front of a cardboard box. The box will be filled will perhaps reams of unused paper. Inside and at the back of the box will be a board. Outside of and behind the box itself will be a fairly heavy hunk of steel I have sitting around. I may set that up now and try my pellet gun on it. I’ve made my own, but you can find some downloadable targets here. I like some of what they’ve done so I may use some of those as well. Okay, here’s the present setup:  Target Cam. My first shot with the pellet gun hit the hollow-core door behind it. The sights were that out of whack. So I put those boards behind it. But I eventually got it dialed in. My last shot caught a piece of the bullseye which you can see in the larger image. The hallway is rather dark so I positioned a fairly bright LED light use for hiking. It’s the kind that you can strap on your head. It does the job.
At present, there is no board in the box. There's just a ream of paper with that piece of metal sitting between the box and the chair. I'd like to get a wider backdrop but for pellets this is more than sufficient. I'm not going to be spraying bullets all over.
For the subsonic .22 rounds, I'll just have to see how much power they have. My gun is already fairly well dialed in so I don't imaging spraying bullets outside the protected areas while I dial it in. But you never know.
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Post by timothylane on Jun 15, 2020 12:31:52 GMT -8
Well, I saw a tiny dot in the upper left of the large circle around the bull's eye. I assume that was your hit.
Incidentally, in the second of Michael Z. Williamson's sniper books, the 2-man team is visiting Romania for a mission, and learn that in Romania they use wooden bullets for indoor practice because of the possibility of lead vapor. One of the snipers is bemused by the idea of using wooden bullets in Romania, and especially in the area of the Little Dragon's castle.
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