Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 16, 2019 21:43:30 GMT -8
Episode 1: 1:23:45This starts off as the kind of disaster film that Irwin Allen would have been proud of. In fact, if it wasn't a persistent need for streaming companies such as HBO to stretch everything out into a series, this first episode (at 60 minutes) would have made the first half of a very fine movie. Alas, I sense this will be drawn out. But what they did show was very chilling and depressing. This is not an advertisement either for nuclear power nor for Soviet science. This first episode starts out slightly uneven. Flashback-based stories can often be dull. And early-on the direction seems ham-fisted and overwrought. Thankfully, that doesn't last and you are left with your jaw dropped and eyes wide open in horror as you see just how stupid people can be. I'm still not sure what caused the explosion. I'm sure the rest of the series will get into that. I'm just not sure I'll be there. Sixty minutes may have been enough. How many grisly radiation burns does one need to see? I viewed this on my Roku device. I started a 7-day trial of HBO Now. I'll poke around a little more and see if their $15.00/month subscription fee looks like a good deal.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 17, 2019 7:21:30 GMT -8
Reviews I've seen indicate that this is very good at exposing one of the major problems of totalitarian government -- the political refusal to acknowledge government error. Lord Darcy, in one of Randall Garrett's stories, noted that a government must either acknowledge (and try to correct) its errors -- or make none to begin with. And since no one is error-free . . .
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 17, 2019 7:36:13 GMT -8
Oh, yes. It certainly has that in spades. After the reactor core blew up, every reading of roentgens was off the scale of any device they had. So too with the “refusal to acknowledge government error.” It’s laid on so thick, it leaves you as no doubt about the concept. And this may have been exactly now it happened. Could be. I don’t really dispute that. What I think is that they did an A-#1 job of recreating the look and feel of a nuclear power plant whose core had exploded. Chillingly so. I’m just not sure there’s enough left to base a series on. I’m certainly not motivated to watch the next episode. Instead of talking in theory, if you have a tablet or computer of any kind, you can do the 7-day free trial of HBO NOW and then cancel out. What is striking (and if Steve shows up here, perhaps he can explain) is how utterly incompetent the Soviets look. Yes, they did build this highly complex nuclear reactor. But if this first episode is anything to go by, nobody really seemed to know what they were doing. And (so far) there is no background to the accident. I groaned as soon as I saw that this series was opening with a flashback mode from a guy who had witnessed it all and was going to reveal a tell-all story. So instead of a build-up the events leading the the reactor explosion, we’re going to likely be jumping around. So that’s one reason I have little enthusiasm for watching any more of this. The big event has happened and all that will be left is the recriminations. But I would have loved to have seen the build-up to the accident. Wiki has an article that explains the gist of what went wrong: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 17, 2019 15:19:53 GMT -8
I suspect you are right, Mr. Kung. I don't know the veracity of the portrayal of this accident, but even TSA employees look more competent and better trained than workers in a Russian nuclear power plant. I've decided to push on a little and to watch episode two, Please Remain Calm. I've actually fast-fowarded a bit in a couple places. They had a rather boring top-level meeting with Gorbachev. It may all have occurred like that, but the script seemed a strict steroetype: One know-all scientist over in the corner shaking his head while the bureaucrats try to deny the severity of the situation. I also skipped over some of the not-very-interesting hospital scenes. I was never a big fan of ER either. Boring. But then they'd get to the good stuff. And the good stuff (at least in this episode) includes Stellan Skarsgård in an excellent role as Boris Shcherbina, one of the higher-ups who is in charge and on the scene, and Jared Harris as the haggard scientist who is (until the one nuclear chick shows up) the only one with a clue as to the severity of the situation and what can be done about it. The production values are outstanding. You figure they had a pretty good budget. I mean, even if it's all CGI, it must have taken something to recreate the look of a few hundred old-style Russian busses driving down the road to evacuate the city. They do an excellent job of putting you in the time and place. I haven't finished this episode yet so I'll likely add further impressions.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Jun 17, 2019 15:51:06 GMT -8
The thing to remember about the USSR is actually an old joke, but most jokes have some basis in fact.
"They pretend to pay us , and we pretend to work"
I think that says everything about the Soviets and every other socialist/communist regime ever.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 17, 2019 16:42:54 GMT -8
The Russians had their share of good engineers, but they were also good at using others' ideas. The T-34 was based on the ideas of an American designer, Walter Christie. (The US ignored him. The Russians do at least recognize quality when they see it. Similarly, the British developed the first aniline dyes, but did nothing with the field. So the Germans ended up dominating the field until World War I, when the blockade halted their exports as well as their imports.)
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 17, 2019 16:54:35 GMT -8
I read a book once about the US ordnance bureau and its manifold failures (and occasional successes). The Allies in World War I relied on US-designed machine guns (Maxim was American) -- but the US had to buy its machine guns from them. For that matter, Holland built his first modern submarine not for the US but for the Fenians. In that case, the Navy saw its value.
On the other hand, the Garand M-1 in World War II was one of Ordnance's greatest successes.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Jun 17, 2019 18:55:09 GMT -8
The 30.06 M-1 was considered by Patton as the best infantry weapon ever made. My father, the old gunny, concurred.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 17, 2019 19:26:00 GMT -8
Stellan has been good in quite a few things.
I finished the second episode. They seem to be departing from history. There is a water storage area below the reactor core. If the core hits that, there will be a steam explosion. This checks out with what I read on Wiki.
But in the series it says the explosion would be so catastrophic that the Ukraine would have to be abandoned for 100 years and areas ever further out would be disastrously effected. Wiki mentions nothing to this degree.
I’ve got a few days left on my free trial so I may or may not go on a little longer. But I think this series has pretty much shot its wad in the first two episodes.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 17, 2019 21:05:56 GMT -8
I don't think even the Chernobyl area was abandoned for very long. Certainly not the whole Ukraine, obviously. Perhaps you misinterpreted what they said.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 17, 2019 21:19:15 GMT -8
Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. I thought I was pretty clear. In the series it says that there was a danger of an explosion so massive that it would make the entire Ukraine uninhabitable for 100 years.
But the article in Wiki, while acknowledging that they had to pump out the holding tanks underneath the core, made no mention of any such danger (other than a steam explosion if the core hit either the water tanks or the water table...so they tried freezing the water table but apparently that wasn't particularly effective). Sounds like the series maker threw in a little cinematic hyperbole.
The fallout was nasty enough. But had there been some danger of a sort of Dr. Strangelove device in terms of devastating effects, I think we would have heard about it.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Jun 18, 2019 6:11:44 GMT -8
The Russians have turned it into a tourist site, people have moved back into their homes less than two miles from the plan. Radiation levels in some parts are still high enough to fri an egg. Wildlife is mutating in strange ways. Fault western capitalism if you will but our problems with nuclear power are insignificant compared to those of our Communist neighbors.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 18, 2019 7:32:26 GMT -8
Even a flawed Soviet nuclear power plant is an amazing piece of engineering. According to this Wiki article, the design of the reactor was flawed compared to what the West had at the time. One of the worst flaws was that it would take about one minute for back-up generators to come up to power should the plant lose external power (power needed, in particular, for running the cooling pumps). And apparently that was more than enough time for a working nuclear reactor to go bad. So what they were trying to do was to see if they could tap enough electricity from their electrical generators as they were winding down (while they still had some momentum) in order to extend the time that the water pumps were in operation cooling the nuclear core. They had had no success in three previous tries and this fourth one was a clusterfuck. Have you ever broken something by fiddling with something you didn’t know much about? It may have been fixing something on the car, a home improvement gone bad, or even a piece of software. I think we’ve all done that and got into the situation in the first place because the stakes were low so why no martial on?One error easily compounds another. It is quite apparent that the shift that came on to complete that fourth test was fiddling with the equipment in ways it was never meant to be fiddled with. It’s as if you or I were in the control room pushing buttons at random and then pushing more buttons trying to fix what we had just previously broken. But the idea of building a nuclear power plant that was in danger of serious malfunction if the power went off is amazing. I don’t know if the Soviets built these plants as a matter of prestige to keep up with the West and groupthink drowned out any safety concerns. And I don’t understand the physics of it, but other designs (Western designs) dealt much better with over-heating issues. In the Soviet design, a bad feedback loop was obviously more than possible. (Apparently in more modern Western designs, boiling water in the pipes would act as an inhibitor to nuclear fission.) Liquid water, by its very presence, dampens a nuclear reaction because of its density. So when this water (wrapped around the core in order to transfer heat to the boilers to make steam to make electricity) itself begins to boil, that can be double-trouble for a the RBMK style of reactor used at Chernobyl. Boiling water being less dense, it not only transfers less of the reactor heat to the heat-transfer system but acts to allow that nuclear reaction to be hotter because the neutrons are no longer being slowed down a little by the liquid water. There were other design issues such as the build-up in this kind of reactor of xenon-15 (which wouldn’t be a bad band name) which “is a reaction-inhibiting neutron absorber," thus "core power ontinued to decrease in the absence of further operator action—a process known as reactor poisoning.” So during the test, in short (if I understand this right), when they throttled down the reactor to do the test, the power became lower than what they wanted. They started mucking with rods and things — and disabling many of the safety systems as part of the test. And the guy in charge decided they needed to up the power. And then they basically started to pull wheelies and pop clutches with this reactor, trying to do things with it that neither its design nor the laws of physics allowed. And now, as Mr. Traveler mentions, they have a tourist attraction
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 18, 2019 8:59:21 GMT -8
Xenon is atomic number 54, so there is no such thing as xenon-15. Wikipedia lists its isotopes as going from 124 to 136, so I suppose this should be either 125 or 135.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 18, 2019 14:51:40 GMT -8
I just finished the third episode, “ Open Wide, O Earth.” Although the first episode had the most outstanding visuals, this episode has the tightest script yet. The entire episode works well with many individual scenes of note. Basically the threat of the explosion of the core which would doom the Ukraine to uninhabitability for 100 years has passed. But the danger isn’t over. The water has been pumped out, the fire is extinguished but the core now is beginning to melt. The thick concrete slabs underneath the reactor, built as a safety measure, might hold for two or three months, at best. If the core gets through to the groundwater, this will supposedly poison the river and eventually the Black Sea and other areas for centuries to come. Legasov’s plan is to mine under the concrete and install a cooling system. He has asked Gorbachev for all the liquid nitrogen in the Soviet Union as his method of cooling, The miners who are enlisted know it is a dangerous job. Some of the best scenes are between the foreman of the miners and Shcherbina/Legsov. Meanwhile Ulana Khomyuk (Emily Watson) is the nuclear scientist who is trying to go back and interview the surviving staff of the control room and figure out what happened. The KGB isn't particularly happy about that. From reading the Wiki article on the accident, it’s clear there isn’t a solid consensus on the cause of the accident. And inside the episode, the opinion is that an explosion as did occur was impossible. Clearly some liberties have been taken in regards to the events. I’m just now sure which ones. Emil Watson plays the nuclear scientist who is in sync with Legasov. She does not seem too overtly like a girl-power add-on just to appease a certain demographic. But she may be just that. Check out How Accurate is “Chernobyl” Miniseries, which states: Whatever the case may be, she's a solid character so far.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 18, 2019 20:14:51 GMT -8
Episode 4 is “ The Happiness of All Mankind.” The cleanup phase of the Chernobyl site and surroundings has begun. Several square miles of land must be bulldozed. People must be evacuated. There’s a good scene in the opening of a young soldier trying to order an 82-year-old woman to leave her farm. She gives a dramatic speech about not having moved on time and again as she ticked off the big events in Russian history. We follow a squad of three soldiers who are tasked with killing all the animal life in a particular area. This means mostly pets. They are shot, thrown into the back of a dump truck, and then dumped into a pre-dug hole and covered with cement. Three roofs that surround the exploded core must be cleared of rubble. They try some robots but must eventually rely on “biorobots” — men. Thousands of soldiers are given 90 seconds on the roof. Their job is to dump the remains (mostly extremely radioactive graphite) over the side of the roof. They don’t explain the reasoning very well. But this must be done before they can construct a cover for the roof. Perhaps the next episode will make this effort make a little more sense. The episode ends with Legasov beings tasked to go to Vienna and give a report to the Atomic Energy Commission. Khomyuk urges that they tell the truth. After all, there are about 15 other RBMK reactors that must be fixed. She knows secrecy will not be conducive to that. This is a well written (Craig Mazin) and directed (Johan Renck) episode. There are no explosive events (literally or otherwise) but mostly holds a high level of interest.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 19, 2019 7:31:12 GMT -8
Chernobyl concludes with the fifth episode, “ Vichnaya Pamyat.” It’s a good concluding episode and this has turned out to be another good series recommended by Steve. I thought there were elements to the first two episodes that made the outlook grim. It was appearing to get stuck in hospital scenes. In fact, the worst storyline in the series was more or less set there. I would continually fast-forward by it. And that brings up a note about HBO. It streams very well. Nearly all services (including Netflix) will choke if you try to fast-forward streaming conflict. HBO was as smooth as butter. And it would immediately present the streaming content at full resolution. Amazon Prime Video (although it has gotten better) is notorious for taking a long time to build a buffer. Until then, you get somewhat low-res content. This fifth and final episode starts with Legasov’s Vienna testimony to the Atomic Energy Commission having already been given. He toed the party lie. That is, he lied. The lie is that it was only operator error that led to the accident and that there were no inherent design flaws to the RBMK type of reactor. Later, at a show trial of three of Chernobyl’s managers (who are indeed guilty of gross incompetence), Legasov concludes his testimony (after having condemned the gross incompetence of the three managers) with notes about the inherent design flaws of the reactors and why they were there: They were cheaper to build. And then he gives a big Kirk-like speech about freedom. Yes, governments and parties involve themselves in big lies for one reason or another. But the sad irony is that 99% of people watching this are going to consider today’s “big lies” the denial of “climate change,” Trump having colluded with the Russians, any criticism of Darwinism is only by religious fanatics, and “gender” is not a real thing. So despite lessons to be learned from watching this, I very much doubt that more than a few will draw the correct lessons. But this is certainly a series worth watching, although having browsed HBO’s rather lame fare, I doubt I’ll be going past the free 7-day trial.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 19, 2019 9:09:00 GMT -8
They do have an epilogue where the series producers note what happened to some of the people. And putting last what might have come first (or sooner), they did get somewhat into the technical aspects of what what wrong. At the show trial, Legasov has some simplistic visual aids as he tries to articulate in layman’s terms what went wrong. Although I think his presentation was mediocre, it was good to have some of that finally.
In short, despite the design flaws (and no design anywhere doesn’t have flaws and trade-offs or else nothing could ever be built), the real problem was the managers running the reactor. They ditched the manual and behaved recklessly….extremely so. In fact, the guy playing the chief villain — Paul Ritter as Anatoly Dyatlov — is wonderfully villainous. One wonders if a guy this obnoxious could have ever reached the level he was at.
Series such as this suffer when they bend the truth as I think they did when they said that there was a chance that Chernobyl would blow up and make the Ukraine (and parts further) uninhabitable for 100 years. Okay…maybe this was so, but that’s the first I’ve heard of that. So once you fib a little, the viewer doesn’t know what other truths you’ve stretched — in a series where a central theme is the need to tell the truth. Was Dyatlov really as incompetent, abusive, and villainous as portrayed? Maybe. But the series producers have undermined themselves. I’m left to wonder how much is just creative license.
Still, one reviewer who claims to have been born in Pripyat states:
I think it highly likely that they caught the gist of the event. But I also wonder how much of this really is “the cost of lies.” The Soviets had many great technical achievements, no matter what system everyone was operating within. The lies in this case (as presented) regard inherent flaws in the reactor that, of course, it would have been good for plant operators to know about.
But if you watch this series, the problem wasn’t lies, but bad managers who acted with extreme negligence. They had clear guidelines in hand of the do's and dont's of how to operate the reactor. These guidelines may have accounted for the design flaws (for all we know...and the series gives no clue in this regard, at least that I can recall).
So it’s one thing to blame it on a web of lies. Fine. Governments lie. That’s not a new thing. But governments also do a great job at hiding and even rewarding incompetence — promoting people not because of how well they can do their job but whether or not they are toeing the part line.
America is now thoroughly infected with this disease and if we just cast off the problem as a few hidden lies by bureaucrats, we'll miss the most vital part of this story. Indeed, it’s likely the series producers had a somewhat narrow slant regarding who and what they wanted to out as the bad guy. We get zero background, for instance, on how these incompetent managers reached their positions of power in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 19, 2019 9:53:14 GMT -8
I can remember when the movie Quiz Show came out, about the late 1950s scandals and the man at the center, Charles Van Doren. It was an interesting movie that nicely skewered the show's dishonesty -- but it also fictionalized many details in a movie about the moral wrong of doing that. Many pointed this out, and it even came up at the end of the satire of it in MAD Magazine.
I recall that at the end of Sink the Bismarck they actually noted that the main character was actually a composite, though other errors (or changes) of details were glossed over.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 19, 2019 19:50:10 GMT -8
Yours Truly will always give a fair and unvarnished opinion. The lady nuclear scientist was indeed a composite character and the filmmakers rightly point this out at the end. Kudos to them. And whether there were or were not a lot of women in nuclear physics in the Soviet Union at the time, the character seemed female just to have a woman in there. That said, she proved to be a good character, nicely written, and not a lot of obnoxious virtue-signaling stuff from her. Whatever the motivation, the part was well-written and well-acted. The one role that stood out as a bomb was the Gorbachev character played by David Dencik. Maybe Mikhail was this dull and plain-vanilla. But as good as the visual effects were in this, it was very clear that Dencik was wearing a skull cap (or fake hair). It looked pretty cheap. From the front (as in this photo) it didn’t look too bad. But side-on it was like he was wearing a Halloween mask.
|
|