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Post by artraveler on Dec 21, 2021 18:39:22 GMT -8
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Dec 21, 2021 18:50:58 GMT -8
I had heard of beer in Sumer, but this pushes the dates back a couple of thousand years.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 12:38:40 GMT -8
Interesting. I thought ancient Egypt was where they found the earliest sign of beer. Anyway, I don't think you need a PhD to "better understand the role of alcohol in ancient societies."
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 12:41:22 GMT -8
Wasn't that the movie with Sigourney Weaver playing Dian Fossey?
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 12:45:11 GMT -8
Huh? Beer is beer, whether guzzled during the Super Bowl or a six pack is thrown in someone's grave. Scholars. Sheesh.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 12:49:37 GMT -8
And let's be clear about this "...only apparently used as part of burial rituals." So...they found remains of beer in a grave. Did it ever occur to them that they were giving this guy a big beer-bash send-off with dancing girls and all? Someone obviously puked in the grave. Scholars. No imagination.
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Post by kungfuzu on Dec 23, 2021 12:59:17 GMT -8
Lieber Frauen und Herren. Mit our verk, we ist sure that ve have hit upon ze origins of ze "Frat Party" which has become a ritual in Western educational culture. Ve ist confident zat mit a further government grant of zeveral million dollars, ve will be able to demonstrate a direct line between our recent discovery und Animal House. Ve will concentrate particularly as to how our discovery has contributed to the development of a character zuch as Bluto.
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Post by artraveler on Dec 23, 2021 13:16:59 GMT -8
Scholars. No imagination. Yep, and the more scholarly the less imagination, or sense of irony. Did you guy hear that the grandson of George Orwell has approved an updated edition of 1984 with a woman named Julia as the main character who is completely bought into the woke society? They see no irony in rewriting 1984 to fit today's wokeness.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 14:03:33 GMT -8
Oh my gosh. LOL. So true. Listen, I have no trouble attributing the invention of beer to Jews...or anyone else. But what's this baloney about "social structure as it became more and more complex.” Does anyone on God's green earth associate the intake of alcohol with "a more complex social structure"? I mean, seriously. Good god. Academics can be so idiotic. Have they ever been to a bar?
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Post by kungfuzu on Dec 23, 2021 14:26:05 GMT -8
I think they have things backwards. Yes, making beer requires a somewhat more complex social structure than taking a drink out of the Jordan river. But I think they have it backwards. The social structure had to reach a certain level before beer could be produced. Not that beer made the social structure more complex.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 15:35:05 GMT -8
You wonder. Basically anthropology is like a gigantic Rorschach Inkblot. They read into it what they will. I've watched scads of documentaries. And, yes, one can say that this Pharaoh or emperor reigned from this date to that. You might even say when a certain building was built. But I think (and some scholars will admit) we have almost zero idea what it was like to live in ancient cultures.
What does it take to make beer? A vat, some grain, yeast, and that's about it. Easy peasy. I've seen my neighbor make wine. Wine basically makes itself more or less.
I'm not saying that it doesn't take a degree of sophistication before a society can tackle complex building projects or create complex legal or financial structures. I just don't think today's scientists can tell us all that much. I've read some of their interpretations. And the ideas they have are so in-bred, they all just tell each other the same stories. I'm only half joking when I say these people have almost no imagination. And it takes quite an imagination to even begin to comprehend how some ancient people lived.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 15:38:12 GMT -8
Oh I can't wait. Indeed, the lack of self-awareness it would take to write a "woke" version of 1984. I would read it like a comedy. In fact, it's possible it will be very unintentionally funny.
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Post by kungfuzu on Dec 23, 2021 15:42:42 GMT -8
Actually, we are very limited in our concrete knowledge as to when ancient Pharaohs and emperors ruled. Books and documentaries too often state as fact supposition. Of course "Menon ruled from x to z" flows better than "the facts are not completely clear, but it would appear Menon ruled sometime between x and z." Very often, the deeper one gets into a historical period, the less one becomes absolutely sure of "facts."
If this irritates me, you can imagine what I think of those scientists who state as unequivocal fact that the universe was created 13.5 billion years ago, or such other "facts." Too many today state as fact, that which is actually not much more than opinion.
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Post by kungfuzu on Dec 23, 2021 15:47:34 GMT -8
Like everything, it is easy once one knows how to do it. It was certainly not so easy 7-14,000 years ago. Someone had to be the first to figure it out. It may have been different people at different times and places figuring it out independently.
The most difficult step was probably learning how to cultivate barley or some other grain in order to have the basic ingredient. Of course, it is possible that someone took some wild grain and worked with that. But making the step from harvested barley to beer was genius.
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Post by artraveler on Dec 23, 2021 15:47:41 GMT -8
In fact, it's possible it will be very unintentionally funny. Remember during the BO administration that they did a life of Julia comic book? The hero of this rewrite is named Julia. The law of unintended consequences seems to be working overtime.
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Post by artraveler on Dec 23, 2021 16:04:09 GMT -8
We live in a technical age where things are produces elsewhere and shipped to our doors. Even as little as 200 years ago people were more dependent on what they could produce in their own homes than purchasing from somewhere else. most Americans lived in rural areas and could make a fire, dress a deer, build a shelter and make necessary adjustments to their environment as needed. We did not need plumbers, electricians, or other professionals.
In neolithic times a city was a radical departure from the norm. The early hunter-gathers lived in a relative paradise. Game was plentiful, food of all kinds could be picked from trees and bushes. Realistically I doubt anyone worked more than a few hours per day. So making beer, IMHO, was a wonderful accident. Someone left some grain in a pot, it rained and fermented. They tasted it, went wow and tried to make more. Those early beers must have had a layer of mash on the top that had to be filtered. I wonder who the bright boy was that invented straws?
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 16:15:52 GMT -8
I'd certainly agree with that. Just reasonable careful listening to a modern documentary uncovers a lot of BS. Listen, consider we're living in an age where even the hard sciences have gone off half-cocked. The "multiverse" theory is (or ought to be) the greatest embarrassment to "science" since the Piltdown Man.
The soft sciences fare even worse. The modern propensity to is to project onto history today's fashions and beliefs. You can see this especially in movies. I don't believe the great producers in England are even capable anymore of producing an authentic period piece. But they are still heads and tails over the Cretans in Hollyweird. (And maybe, by the way, the Cretans weren't so bad. Who knows?)
This is exactly the case. Science can still measure the charge of the electron to several decimal places. But their metaphysics is so messed up, they are entirely incapable of interpreting what their measurements mean. Science has blinded itself to meaning. And it is not just my opinion that by doing so it has hampered the ability of science to understand our world, and even to form new and useful theories.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 16:32:14 GMT -8
I don't discount the expertise needed. But it is a modern conceit that we have been progressing until we have reached the all-knowinging crest of the hill inhabited by The Golden Children. These Children really do believe that anything old is inferior.
The remarkable thing is that there is zero evidence that humans have evolved from primitive to modern. No missing link. No intermediate species. Therefore there is every reason to believe that in some obscure village tens of thousands of years ago there was an Isaac Newton or Edison who invented or imagined wondrous things. It's worth noting that many of these types (such as Newton) invented major mathematical structures or ideas more or less from thin air. The story of man isn't necessarily one of steady progression. There are lots of leaps and bounds.
And no doubt mankind has forgotten most of what it ever knew. Until writing, and particularly the printing press, came along, it was difficult for ideas to propagate. And especially for knowledge to accumulate. And without sufficient leisure time (which itself is based on complex social, commercial, and political ideas), even if an ancient had a Eureka moment, would he have the time to develop it or would most of his time be taken up by basic everyday survival tasks?
I think it not only possible but likely that enormously clever inventions and ideas were created by mankind tens of thousands of years ago. But there was likely no way to preserve them by spreading these ideas. Nor the stability and leisure time to cultivate them.
The modern conceit that all ancients were primitive means we likely wouldn't recognize something advanced even if we saw it. Nor do we, as moderns (except for the few of us) notice the truly primitive ideas overtaking our culture by people who think they are the pinnacle of civilized behavior. Abortion, drugs, tattoos, propaganda, gender wacko-ism, etc. As mankind's technology continues to progress at an amazing rate, man himself – at least in the rank and file – is devolving.
We have the greatest, and cheapest trinkets...but people are walking around outside with a mask on. We are this amazing (and alarming) mix of high technology and low culture. Think of Theodore Dalrymple's Life at the Bottom. It's a book that everyone should read. Look at what we are normalizing. Look at how degressive the Progressives are making us.
I can tell you, I don't, as a rule, look back at ancient history and sneer and feel superior.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 23, 2021 16:52:28 GMT -8
I do think there are tribes and places in America (particularly on the Left Coast) where food was plentiful and easy to get. Salmon and shellfish can still be had for minimal effort. The greatest danger was probably other tribes. From what I understand, the Neanderthals were a rugged people who lived a rugged life. They apparently regularly hunted quite large and dangerous animals. And back then there was the saber toothed tiger and all kinds of extremely dangerous nasties. Still, my point would be that the oldest human fossil is about 200,000 years old. There is time enough for beer to have been invented (and forgotten) independently in hundreds of places. We are, let's admit, talking about rotting grain. Wine was surely as easy as getting a buzz off of some berries that had been fermenting on the ground. Didn't take an Einstein to take it to the next step. Beer might be a little more complicated. But I would expect further discovers to be made. And yet so much of ancient history simply does not survive. We may never know. But in our need to know we will distort. We become like the parable of the blind men and the elephant. I think our history is necessarily going to look like this. The one who touched the leg thought he was touching a pillar. The one who touched the trunk thought it was a snake. Etc.
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