Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 20, 2019 20:35:07 GMT -8
I was watching this truly atrocious docudrama on HBO titled Einstein and Eddington. This is a bunch of left-wing virtue signaling rubbish. But normally I like this type of program (not the left-wing virtue-signaling rubbish but the scientific aspect). One of the issues in this movie (that is based, however loosely, on real-life events) was the clockwork universe of the Englishman, Newton, versus the relativistic universe of the German, Einstein. Whatever nationalist rivalries were inflamed at the time by this question, I don’t know. All I do know is that you can’t trust this documentary to give an accurate view. But there is/was that inherent conflict between the two world views. Einstein brought the idea that time was relative and that nothing (including gravity) could move (or exert a force) faster than the speed of light. And it got me to thinking. God help us from our meaning and conception of the universe coming from scientists, especially reprobate ones such as Einstein. Lucky for him he was so brilliant because otherwise he was a bit of a bum and somewhat of a low-life. But I digress. The interesting point (at least I hope it’s interesting) is that it occurred to me that — whether there is a clockwork universe, an Einsteinian relativistic one, one with an ether, one with an omnipresent quantum foam, or one made out of Lego bricks as small as the strings in string theory — it makes zero difference to our lives. These are interesting factoids that don’t, in a practical way, matter. And even if you think it matters, which intellectual model do you apply? Is gravity the exchange of gravitons or the curvature of space? Both? Neither? How shall you go about your life until this is resolved? Scientists are the worst philosophers. Because they live in their minds, they think this is the final and higher domain for mankind. But if we are honest and brave, we will note that these big-picture physics are interesting only regarding the House we live in. That house has four walls and a roof. It's an interesting technical point if the shingles are asphalt or rubber, but it’s the living inside the house that is the point. The material stuff, although surely necessary, is just a vehicle to make actions, consequences, living, life, love, regret, hope, and faith possible.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 20, 2019 21:29:57 GMT -8
An interesting theory, I must say. Science has many practical effects, but there are also theories that are of value only in the sense of satisfying curiosity (which is certainly desirable to many of us). You may recall what Sherlock Holmes sad on the subject early in A Study in Scarlet. What, really, did it matter to him whether the Sun orbited the Earth or the Earth orbited the Sun?
I doubt nationalism would have played any noticeable role in Einstein's theorizing. In fact, he expatriated himself during the 1920s, becoming a stateless man. At least by then, he had a dislike of Germans even as he taught in Berlin. Other German physicists may have felt differently. Some were loyal enough during World War II, and others probably would have been had it not been for the anti-Semitism that drove so many out.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 21, 2019 7:58:29 GMT -8
Indeed. I suppose the core of my opinion (not theory, for I’m not trying to prove or disprove anything) is that scientists not only don’t own the conception of reality but theirs is a narrow and stilted view. They dissect a frog to look at its constituent parts and then declare there is nothing at all to see but a random arrangement of atoms due to nothing but time.
The materialist view is a limited view. And they know it. We know it. Although few will admit it. But if we ask a simple question such as — Why is it necessary for the universe to be made this way in order for us to exist? — the materialist answer will be: That is not a relevant question because ours is just one of an infinite number of universes, all with random properties.
In essence, their materialist theology, although supposedly expounding on the majesty of this great universe — gives it short shrift. This materialist theology must ascribe randomness and pointlessness to the universe as a core constituent because that is what their dogma demands
So, in essence, the materialist devalues all that he sees and discovers and has no framework to give these things meaning. Ask them the big “Why” questions and they can do nothing but dissemble.
Still, if a solar flare, solar prominence, asteroid, meteor, or nearby supernova wiped out all life on earth, what then for any kind of teleological view of the universe?
And that is a great question for which we have no answer but “God allows this to happen” which is no more satisfying, nor instructive, than the “everything is random” answer. And apparently life has been wiped out to a great extent on earth a time or two. How to make sense of it all?
And as nifty as finding out how many galaxies there are in the universe, this hasn’t led to us making sense of it.
|
|
|
Post by lynda on Jun 21, 2019 9:37:36 GMT -8
This, surely, is the point.
Time cannot exists without gravity, since it is the movement of the universe through space which creates the affect we call time. Every element of creation is dependent on the others, being held together by the word of the Almighty. In the dissecting of the universe, the frog dies.
Isn't the universe simply the stage upon which this scene of His story is taking place? And some may baulk at the use of the word "simple " as they carve away at the elements, but what is impossible for man, is possible by the spoken word of God. It is a crafty and deceptive foe, who would divert our eyes from the truth.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 21, 2019 9:46:19 GMT -8
From our perspective, the universe can be seen as a complex machine. But we have nothing to compare it with. To call the universe a “natural” product is to then ask, “Compared to what?”
To call it “natural” (as opposed to supernatural) is to de-nature it. We use a word to not only imply that we understand reality but to dismiss it as important.
We simply have no clear, firm grasp. And it is dishonest, at best, to hold that as the default position. Thus I purport that today’s “science” (which does plenty of science, but seemingly even more bad philosophy) has become a terrible way to understand the products of its own research.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Jun 21, 2019 10:11:47 GMT -8
I used to ask a similar question when I was in my early 20s. I basically asked "Who would care if the world were destroyed tomorrow?" And would answer it "Nobody." And thereby put the value of existence in its "proper" perspective. This is the very seed of nihilism. Such discussions generally made people a little sick.
I disagree, to a point. The "God allows this to happen" answer at least gives us the opportunity to believe there is reason (even if we do not understand it) behind the universe, thus a higher truth i.e. it gives us hope. The other position gives us no such thing.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 21, 2019 12:37:46 GMT -8
It would seem, Gibbnonymous, that the entire universe is built like a giant game of The Last Straw. (I had one of these as a kid.) Tug on one of the natural “laws” and it breaks everything else, at least in terms of creating a universe in which we could exist. Even scientists acknowledge this, which is one reason the “multiverse” has become scientific dogma for many. But the evidence of a finely-tuned universe and the Big Bang give evidence of design and purpose.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 21, 2019 12:41:40 GMT -8
Atheistic materialism says there is no purpose to things. Religion says the opposite. (In Islam, nothing is said to happen that is no Allah’s will.)
The moving parts (which could destroy the entire earth at any time) appears to act like a clockwork universe (figuratively speaking, even if the underlying physics are a little different) and thus the answer seem to somewhere in the middle.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 30, 2019 10:19:50 GMT -8
Someone wrote a rambling and somewhat incoherent article (standard fare at AT these days) that touches on this subject: How the Eclipse Expedition to Confirm Einstein’s Theory Instead Birthed MulticulturalismI think we're slipping into Lunaticville if we blame the Theory of Relativity for relativism. Granted, there is a certain moral and rational comfort in the idea of Newton's clockwork universe. Everything is ordered for a purpose. Still, what you might gather from this article is that no scientific theory is likely the final story. They are subject to revision if not absolute revolution. And I'm not anti multi-cultural. I love eating at a Chinese or Italian restaurant. What I'm not is anti-white. A lot of dishonest language (even on our side) is hidden by not confronting what capital-m "Multicultural" really means. It's a racist ideology hiding in a supposed love for all thing (all things non-white, non-European, non-American, non-Western, non-male, etc.) If we are to argue that science and religion can coexist, we shouldn't go around spouting off this kind of half-cocked gibberish. Multiculturalism stems from Marx (perhaps Satan before him). And because everything has always been relative to the individual human (or cadres of people in power), I don't think Einstein's theory changed anything.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 30, 2019 12:18:53 GMT -8
All scientific theories are subject to revision, of course, which is something carefully forgotten by climate alarmists. But then, theirs long ago ceased to have much to do with genuine science. The idea that relativity theory led to cultural and moral relativism sounds inane to me.
Your take on multiculturalism is quite accurate. In the first place, they don't really mean it. Few leftists, even now, support female genital mutilation. What it really means is that they proclaim all cultures equal, and forgive the sins of non-western cultures because they're doing what is natural for them to do. But this never applies to Western civilization's sins. An Arab slave trader or a Chinese enforcing mandatory abortion may be technically wrong in that they won't defend them, but they'll never criticize them to the degree that they criticize far milder failings in our culture.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Jun 30, 2019 12:31:22 GMT -8
How does one respond politely to prof. Tipler's piece? It would appear to me that he is a good example of the definition of "an expert" as being someone who knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing. A good basic education in history might be helpful in this case.
Nineteenth century leftists, particularly Marx and Engels, are the original instigators of the "multi-cultural" religion. They are those who reduced humanity to economic animals and from there to "classes," ignoring nations, cultures, religions and races. Lenin took it further with his ravings about imperialism being the highest state of capitalism.
The Frankfurt School, racists such as Said and Derrida, as well as unhappy sexual misfits such as Foucault all did their bits to destroy Western Civilization through multi-culturalism. It was a way to get back at those poor white Europeans of Christian extraction if not necessarily practicing, who were too damn successful for their own good.
As for prof. Tipler, I am a little surprised that he did not remark on the contradiction within Karl Popper's claim that "All universal theories, whatever their content, have zero probability." As Popper's statement is nothing if not "universal" his statement has zero probability. Perhaps Popper was saying this "tongue-in-cheek."
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 30, 2019 13:12:46 GMT -8
I shot a note to a Selwyn today thanking him for his continued support with his articles. This support is gracious and wholly unmerited on my part.
But I told him he combined two rare things: Literacy, and the ability to articulate a coherent story or theme beyond one paragraph. This is not always true of us here. It is rarely true of anyone at AT.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 30, 2019 13:24:03 GMT -8
The article was a bit beyond my mathematical/scientific capabilities. However, I've seen a similar point made about the Fitzgerald contraction. The point is that F=ma was defined by Newton in terms of calculus (which he invented). This could be either m (dv/dt) or d (mv)/dt. Even though Newton considered mass unchanging, he chose the second form, which works both in classical and relativistic mechanics.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 30, 2019 16:28:34 GMT -8
No it wasn’t. It was just academic baloney.
Let me state this as clearly as I am capable:
1) I detest people who are nothing but fault-finders. I suppose I qualify as one regarding this article. But I don’t fault him for his opinion as much as an inability to form two coherent paragraphs. I could care less if his thesis was that the appearance of Halley’s comet in 1910 led to the creation of a longstanding tile and tub cleaner as long as he could explain it clearly and build a coherent case.
The problem with the article is both academic hogwash and just today’s typical inability to hold a theme for longer than two sentences.
2) Scientific theories cannot show us the meaning of life, although their discoveries can bring to life meaning via the marvels described. Scientific measurements are always a subset of something else, if only the consciousness it takes to perceive them and then give them meaning. Only a sort of scientific fascism or zealotry can make of them the most important things.
3) Relativism is an offshoot of Marxism. The purpose is to show that Western Civilization is nothing special. Or, if it did have any advantages, these were unfair advantages that came at the expense of innocent and oppressed third-worlders. In short, it is an attempt to equalize squalor with achievement. Sorry, but both the Native Americans or Africans were technologically backward peoples. And living in the age where technology is of utmost importance, they were inferior cultures in any way that matters. It’s related to one of Rush’s Undeniable truths where he says that feminism was invented to give access to the mainstream to unattractive females. Rather than point out the social dysfunction of black ghetto culture, we’re instead said that it is just as worthy as any other expression. Relativism/multiculturalism.
Obviously it seems true that some have used the theory of Darwinism in nefarious ways. But that’s not Darwin’s fault. The naturalistic fallacy is not a new thing (roughly the whole is-ought problem). Just because something is doesn’t mean it’s the right thing. Dennis Prager points out, for instance, that only human beings have hospitals for the injured or sick. Nearly in every other instance in the animal world, the injured or sick are abandoned…or worse.
That is, despite whatever we find in this world, there is a moral sphere (like it or not) that hovers above it all. If one rejects that, one is more apt (if only out of convenient or laziness) to ground one’s morals in arbitrary (if not downright brutal) nature. I seriously doubt that the Nazis needed the theory of Charles Darwin for their racial program. But no doubt it was convenient to their cause. But anyone who thinks that was the main attribute has a screw loose and doesn't understand the history.
The same regarding the confirmation of light bending around the sun (to support Einstein at the expense of Newton). That says zero about how we ought to treat our fellow man, although the scoundrels amongst us are always looking for excuses to justify their ill use of others.
Is that so damn hard to write? For academic types, it usually is. For nearly all conservative types as well. Conservative thought out there is a relative wasteland.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 30, 2019 16:44:18 GMT -8
I agree that the basic point of the article -- linking relativistic physics to moral/cultural relativism -- is pure, unadulterated cow pies or horse apples. The physics may not be, and that's what I was commenting on. (A friend of mine was a physics major in college, even doing a year of graduate study before deciding he was tired of school, and he could probably tell if that portion actually made sense.)
Someone, I don't know who, once wondered whether or not any American Indians would ever have invented the wheel if the Europeans (or the Asians, for that matter) hadn't arrived.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 30, 2019 17:28:51 GMT -8
Math is central to building a bridge, or anything technological or programmable. But it has naught to say about moral issues, otherwise you’d get in this ridiculous situation of, “Oops…forgot to carry the remainder. Yes, I guess abortion is okay.”
I’ve read a couple noble and honest descriptions of mathematics (such as by John Lennox) that note the strangeness that we’re even able to do math at all — that it works. Why should something that exists only in our minds work to build bridges and shoot rockets to the moon? Is there some existence to these things quite outside of the egg-shaped heads?
Mathematicians can also glimpse a form of beauty that you and I will never know. But having worked with some fine artists in the graphic arts industry, this is a trivial observation. A mother having a baby will glimpse a beauty that you or I will never know. Mathematics can be particularly esoteric, but it is nowhere unique in regards to revealing isolated spender.
So yes, of course, someone can trot out an equation that we will not understand. But unless they’re trying to build a better bridge or pointing out some mathematical solution to a physical property, their point is?
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 30, 2019 17:40:06 GMT -8
I think the likelihood that he was. The same thing where Einstein asserted “God does not play dice” (and he probably doesn’t) in regards to some of the central assertions of quantum mechanics.
Just as “climate change” is an over-reported non-fact, the impact of quantum mechanics on the religious-philosophical outlook of scientists has been swept under the rug. To the best of my knowledge (and what little knowledge I have is hard-won), quantum mechanics points to a completely meaningless and random physics.
Imagine looking inside the Betty Crocker cake mix package, doing an analysis of the powder, and finding out there was nothing there. At the very bottom of the rabbit hole, quantum mechanics shows us there is nothing. Interestingly enough, the physics self-negates the universe.
I don’t deny in the least the strange results of the experiments and the math that works out in this regard. But almost no one talks about what impact this has had on the people who have looked down this rabbit hole and then tried to formulate some kind of Meaning of Life.
Obviously most conservatives have at least a passing familiarity with the problems of reductionism. But quantum physics is the largest reductive model we have, and it works exceedingly well (mathematically). But in every way, it shows the shortcoming of the physical sciences in explaining all the other spheres of existing (the moral, the mental, the living, etc.)
When you look at an atom, for instance, it’s not really there. At best, it’s a cloud of possibilities. Curiouser and curiouser it all gets. But there is reality in the glint of gold.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 30, 2019 17:45:51 GMT -8
Einstein didn't like the idea of uncertainty. Schroedinger had similar concerns; his famous thought experiment that has come down to us as Schroedinger's cat was an example of skepticism. Relativity theory said the cat was neither dead nor alive until someone checked; he considered that silly.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,261
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 30, 2019 18:01:14 GMT -8
Schrödinger’s cat problem is an excellent example of the problem of trying to interpret what quantum physics really is. Richard Feynman was of the belief that that math worked and that one shouldn’t go crazy thinking too much about it. That’s as honest of an opinion as I’ve ever read on the matter, and Feynman was generally a very rare example of intellectual honesty, all but gone in today’s scientific world.
We can say with great confidence that there is bizarre strangeness at the quantum level. What we can’t do is bring it up from the micro to the macro and have it say anything (at all…not one quanta) meaningful about our actual experience of the world.
If a theoretical disembodied brain of some type could know only the fine points of quantum theory and the results of experiment, he would easily declare that no such thing as a universe, let alone conscious life, was possible.
There is a fundament (from our perspective) disconnect between what quantum physics measures and how our world actually is. I will grant any scientist from here till Sunday that the Greek (was it Greek?) idea that the universe could be understood only by pure logic is false. Empirical observation is a must. Measuring things is a must.
So how odd that when we get to the end of the rabbit hole and make the finest measurements, we’re basically saying there is nothing to measure. It all seems to be a cloud of probabilities. Nothing is solid. By rights, nothing should exist with this weird soup at the base of all things.
The obvious solution suggests that one must synthesize a philosophy/religion from both extremes — and much from neither extreme. Ivory towers and Esoteric Gatekeepers don’t like that idea. But it’s the reality of the situation as best I can judge. I’m sure Schrödinger’s cat agrees.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jun 30, 2019 18:15:23 GMT -8
The Greeks (especially Aristotle) are often mocked for relying on pure reason without using observations at all (Isaac Asimov was a good example of such a mocker in one of his science articles, possibly in Fact and Fancy, his first collection of them -- I had a copy from the library in the US embassy in Greece). But I think this may be a little unfair. They had no idea of experimentation or otherwise testing their theories, but I think they did base them on what they observed.
|
|