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Post by artraveler on Jun 21, 2019 7:28:13 GMT -8
Well we have been up and down on a strike on Iran. At this time the media is reporting President Trump called back a strike because it might have killed 150 Iranians. Maybe, maybe not.
From a military point of view taking out Iranian assets without endangering any Americans is a simple task. Our stand-off weapons can do that easily. However, that would be reacting to what they are doing, sometimes necessary but always a questionable tactic and one that if it becomes the fallback position always results in failure.
The better tactic is to make the enemy react to your actions. I have no doubt that Iran intended to shot down the drone and anticipated a response from President Trump similar to what has be announced. What Iran doesn't see or know is the extent of our intelligence on their defense and they still don't, but we have just gathered an immense amount of intelligence as they spun up defenses to respond to an attack via human intelligence, electronic intelligence and from satellite photos. They Iranians still know nothing more of our capabilities and plans. The cost of a drone is small compared to what we have gained.
I would go so far, as to suggest that the drone could have been trolling for an Iranian attack in the hope of gathering more intelligence. It is all part of the tactics of mistake Clausewitz would approve.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 8:20:23 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 21, 2019 8:20:23 GMT -8
I haven't been keeping up on this issue. VDH hat a perspective on this in U.S Holds All the Cards in the Showdown with Iran. There's a part of me that says "Let the Europeans finish running this little experiment that the Iranians are reasonable people who just want to make a few needed power plants and have no ill intentions." It might serve them right to have London, Paris, or Berlin nuked. But letting that happen obviously wouldn't be in our interest. Letting the barbarians rule the world is never in the interest of decent people. That probably most Europeans are no longer decent people makes this equation all the more difficult.
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Post by timothylane on Jun 21, 2019 8:40:08 GMT -8
I would have liked to see more of a reprisal than we've seen so far, but I can understand why Trump was concerned about proportionality. After all, so far we have an unmanned drone shot down, and damaging but non-lethal attacks on a pair of non-American tankers. We also are pulling out of the airspace over the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. Something should be done. But who knows if there's another Stuxnet rampaging through Iran networks right this minute? Or they could be waiting to give Iran a nice surprise to wake up to a week from now. That's much better than an immediate (and expected) attack, actually. (I thought in similar terms at the beginnings of our Gulf wars.)
Back in the '60s, I read about some sort of simulation of a fictional crisis similar to the Korean War. Some teams came up with interesting responses, such as the "Soviet" team (the names were fictionalized) that deal with an overly independent "North Korean" ruler but inviting him for a visit and then regretfully reporting his death. But the article also mentioned that a high percentage of the games ended up in World War III.
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 8:44:00 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Jun 21, 2019 8:44:00 GMT -8
One of the advantages of superpower status is there are more options available. Military action is always on the table. Europe has fewer and less viable options. In spite of the size of the EU they do not have the ability to conduct a war that far from their home soil. We are the only country in the world that conduct war on an international scale.
I personally would like nothing better to turn Tehrasn into glass, They declared war on us in 78 and the status has not changed, but Carter's failure to respond eliminated the high ground. I think VDH has it right, we hold all the cards.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 8:51:00 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 21, 2019 8:51:00 GMT -8
My sentiments exactly. That may be the only clean resolution to Iran (and likely all of Islam in the Middle East) even if this "cleanness" leaves a bit of an afterglow.
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kungfuzu
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 9:59:11 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jun 21, 2019 9:59:11 GMT -8
I suspect the administration is ascertaining a fair amount of tactical information from the way Iran has moved assets over the last day or two. It is always better to work with more knowledge and surprise than do what everyone expects.
One of the problems Trump has with this situation is that he has taken on too many big issues at the same time. For example, while China may or may not have known about Iran's plan to shoot down the drone, you can bet that they are figuring out ways to take advantage of the present tensions in the Persian Gulf. In case readers are not following things in the Far East, China's Premier Xi is visiting Kim in North Korea. This is the first time a Chinese premier has visited N. Korea in about 15 years, if I remember correctly. You can be sure they are discussing their thoughts about Trump and how to counter his/America's effect on them.
Last night, I heard some ex-colonel who is "no war at no time" say that Iran would declare all-out war if the USA retaliated even a bit. Even thought I am all for the USA being less involved in putting troops on the ground around the world, I do not buy his reasoning. Still,Trump is in a difficult position.
Given the change in USA energy production, the Middle East has become a much less important geopolitical area for us. Unfortunately, it is still very important for Europe and Asia, i.e. about 2/3rds of the world economy. The USA will not/cannot simply stand by and watch, as the economic disruptions would be huge if the Middle East blew up.
Let's take one scenario as an example. Say oil jumped up to US$120/bbl and shipments to China were cut in half. This would cause huge pain in China and there would be tremendous social unrest. As I have said before, the only time China would really scare me is when she has so many domestic problems that she will have to create international problems to divert the Chinese public's view from what's going on at home.
For historical and emotional reasons, the easiest target would be Taiwan. If China were to attack Taiwan, this would likely bring in the USA as Taiwan's defender. Then Japan might also get involved. Such a thing would be many times more problematic than what's happening in the Strait of Hormuz.
I am not saying it would necessarily happen, but it is one of the many possible realistic scenarios which must be taken into account in international relations. Iranian and Chinese problems may not, at first, appear to be intertwined, but they are. Such things make international relations very tricky.
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 10:39:47 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Jun 21, 2019 10:39:47 GMT -8
The most critical targets to bring the Iranian economy to a complete stop are not the ports and oil production facilities but the electric grid, dams, canals and generating plants are not only in the open but very vulnerable to stand-off weapons.
China has a big stake in free and easy flow of oil out of the gulf. I believe there is only one pipeline that supplies China with crude oil, again shut down the grid and the pumps stop. Perhaps Trump is moving behind the scenes to get China's cooperation. We could see some real movement at the G-20 in Japan.
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kungfuzu
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 10:44:11 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jun 21, 2019 10:44:11 GMT -8
While true, I am sure you can imagine the overwhelmingly negative reaction which would result from the whole the world, including our allies. We have never been willing to go there for a reason. I doubt even Trump will go there.
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 10:51:53 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Jun 21, 2019 10:51:53 GMT -8
My point exactly, we don't have to actually do the act but they need to believe we can.
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Iran
Jun 21, 2019 11:23:59 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jun 21, 2019 11:23:59 GMT -8
I sympathize with the idea of obliterating Tehran, though I think Qom would be a better target, especially when the mullahs are having a public meeting. I suspect that if I were on the American side in the Korean War simulation I mentioned earlier, that would be one of the ones that led to World War III. But I think artraveler hits the right point there -- they need to think we might act even if we don't do so now because an unmanned drone doesn't merit such a harsh response. Fear is a good motivator, and I suspect the mullahs (like many jihadist leaders) think of suicide as great for their followers, not so much for them.
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