Brad Nelson
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Autism
Jan 25, 2023 8:23:10 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 25, 2023 8:23:10 GMT -8
This is not a recommendation to watch this video. I'm thirty minutes into it. What you can say is that Temple Grandin is not someone who sometimes gets so involved in a project that she looses track of time and thus is "on the spectrum." "On the spectrum" has become a social contagion like "trans." It has little actual meaning. It just a desire to identify as a victim.
But there are autistic people or slightly-autistic people, however you want to word it. Grandin is clearly autistic. She's hawking her book Thinking in Pictures: My Life with Autism. I've read at least one of her books, including an early book (and I think that one that put her on the map), Animals in Translation. It is probably as close as you'll ever be to getting inside the head of an autistic person. She's a "high functioning" autistic, as they call it, and that's putting it mildly. She's been an extremely productive person. In the interview with Peterson, she comes across like a grown child much of the time. And Peterson struggles to some extent to carry on a question-and-answer conversation with her. But they do touch on the idea of "thinking in pictures." Grandin very much decries the elimination of shop class (and other vocational training) because she notes that there are many people who may be dumb at math but are amazing builders and mechanics. You can certainly like Grandin because the Left hates her for facilitating the meat industry. She's made it much more humane, for sure, but she'll never be a friend of the red diaper doper babies. She is a hard worker and seemingly of quite traditional values. |
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 25, 2023 13:01:12 GMT -8
I think that using the term, "on the spectrum" is similar to saying someone has "Alzheimers." There are many forms of dementia and Alzheimers is only one of them, but somehow the disease became a catch-all phrase, mostly for people who didn't know what they are talking about.
I have occasionally lost track of time during some activity or other and I am in no way autistic. Before the introduction of cheap time pieces across the world, I doubt that many were so focused on "time" as we are today. I know I even ran into this disregard of time the during my early days in Asia. Businessmen were aware of time and its waste, but many of the other people weren't. I forget the exact term used in Singapore and Malaysia, something like "flexi-time" but more picturesque.
And just to clear up one point about autism. One of the characteristics of autism, perhaps the main one, is the detachment with which autistic people go through life. The severity will vary, but across the board they find it hard to connect with others. Empathy and sympathy are lacking to some degree or other. In this sense, autistic people are cut off from the rest of mankind.
Another common characteristic is the inability to filter out sensations, sometimes called sensory overload. This can contribute to all sorts of odd behaviors and, who knows, it might be part of the reason relationships are so hard for autistic people.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 25, 2023 13:14:49 GMT -8
When I was somewhere around 11 to 13 years old, I took a two week (?) summer course on learning. During one particular session the teacher was explaining how the mind works and asked us something like "what type of tool we needed in order to learn quickly and retain the information." Nobody else answered so I said, "We need to have a motion picture camera in our mind." He looked at me with a smile and then added, "exactly, and that motion picture camera must also have sound."
After class was over, he stopped me and told me that in the years he had been teaching the course, I was the first person who had come up with the answer. We then got into some discussion about my love of history and he speculated that one of the reasons I loved it was because I could see it happening in my mind's eye. He was, of course, correct.
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Brad Nelson
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Autism
Jan 25, 2023 19:27:24 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 25, 2023 19:27:24 GMT -8
Well, I blame feminism. But it could be either/or. Here's an online definition of "on the spectrum":
My definition would be thus:
There are people with severe autism, medium autism, and mild autism. But "on the spectrum" is now used in such a way that it means nothing. It's like Oprah claiming racism for some perceived slight by some retail clerk or street vendor. They have defined "racism" to such an extent that even the idea of colorblindness is deemed racist. Every white person, from the point of view of the race-baiters on the left, is "on the spectrum" of racism. It's not a question of "if." It's a question of "how much."
Of course, yours truly has much sympathy with those who have autism. But the truth is, to be male means being "on the spectrum." Men tend to be able to focus to nearly insane degrees, which is what gives them much power in accomplishing tasks. Men also by nature are not as touchy-feely as women. They are not as good with social skills as women.
And with "normalcy" now being defined using women as the gold standard (and by the same token, everything male being seen as a pathological), of course men are "on the spectrum." That spectrum has been defined, for all intents and purposes, to mean "male." Combine that with the social contagion of everyone wanting to be a victim and you have a spectrum wider than the entire electromagnetic spectrum.
Also, I just noticed (at the Australian Open) when a tennis player is doing badly, he or she may call for a "medical time out." I'm watching that right now with some chick down 5 to 0 in the deciding set. In another match, one of the commentators actually mentioned that a particular "medical time out" seemed suspicious.
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Brad Nelson
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Autism
Jan 25, 2023 19:39:50 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 25, 2023 19:39:50 GMT -8
Again, I don't recommend viewing the video. I'll let you know when something is "must see" and that one isn't. But I found it interesting at one point when Peterson was noting how he spends much of his mental day thinking in words (arguing points back and forth to himself). He said, aside from dreams, he almost never thinks in picture.
And I found that interesting. Seeing pictures is my normal mode. I'm not good at math (but generally got A's in high school because I was persistent and probably did three times the amount of work...that is, it didn't ever come easy to me). And if I try to do math in my head, I sort of have to see the numbers (as if written on a piece of paper) and then work out the problem.
Grandin noted how mathematicians (which is why I'm not one) have some kind of non-visual analytic process. Whether I am "on the spectrum" or not, this is not something I can do.
However, thinking in words and pictures is easy. But I am not a savant at either. I'm just saying those are my modes. I'm, at best, mediocre at both. Grandin notes the visual skills of herself and some engineers. They (and she uses Tesla as a good example) can quite literally see a solution to some problem, and in great detail.
I can't do that although I am highly visual orient. Again, it's obviously not all-or-nothing. Just because one is more visual doesn't mean one has a savant ability in it. I don't. But some do. And obviously a good mathematician is using an analytic ability that is as foreign to me as vision is to a blind person.
It hard for any one person to know what "normal" is because you experience what you experience and you can never really get inside anyone else's head. At best, I have all the weaknesses of being "on the spectrum" and none of the special abilities that make people such as Grandin such remarkable people.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 25, 2023 19:40:16 GMT -8
I rarely used the term for that reason. Also, it is difficult to know for sure if someone is actually "on the spectrum" and testing is required to diagnose it. Today, saying someone is "on the spectrum" is often some sort of label for bragging rights. "Look at me, I'm different. Even though I am handicapped, I am succeeding in life." It is a sort of stolen valour.
Believe me, life for someone who actually is autistic is no bed of roses. And it is less so for those taking care of them. I have been around a goodly number of autistic people and the range of disabilities is large. Some are not able to speak. Some are profoundly obsessive compulsive. Some need constant guidance in the simplest aspects of life. Some have disturbing actions which they are not able to control. Some can get violent. Some have very low IQs. I never say these people are "on the spectrum." I say they are autistic.
I could go on, but I think readers get the idea.
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kungfuzu
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Autism
Jan 25, 2023 19:48:52 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jan 25, 2023 19:48:52 GMT -8
I also think in words particularly when trying to get to the bottom of some question. I will chew on a problem like a dog with a bone. I also still have mental conversations with myself about things. When I was younger I would sometimes do this and suddenly say something out loud as if I had been carrying on the conversation with a person in the room with me. I recall doing this with my mother sometimes. She would smile and ask me what I was thinking. I still do this occasionally with my wife. She looks at me and simply says, "what are you talking about?"
This came home to me in my mid-twenties. Earlier when traveling around Europe by train, I didn't need a radio, and there were no "Walkmen" or other such devices. I could sit and listen to symphonies or rock music in my head. I would start a song by Chicago with one instrument and then add others, one at a time. I thought everybody could do this type of thing until I moved to Singapore and a friend explained to me that this was not the case. We all have different gifts and problems.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 25, 2023 19:50:57 GMT -8
That's exactly right. And it has become analogous to the "social contagion" of "trans." It's something that: A) You can self-diagnose and, B) The mindset of the medical/psychiatric profession is to find abnormality in what 50 years ago would have been simply called "normal variation in human abilities and behavior."
They are now set to find someone "on the spectrum." I'll guran-damn-tee you that if you go to a doctor or psychologist and say that you think you are "on the spectrum," they are almost sure to confirm it. It hasn't quite gotten to the point (as with "trans") that in some places the doctor or counselor is legally required to accept the patient's self-diagnosis. But the vibe behind it all is the same.
But as we know, everything is being turned into a pathology of some sort. Surely this is driven by a couple factors: Feminism (sucking it up is generally a male thing) and the profit motive by the medical/psychology industry.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 25, 2023 19:58:57 GMT -8
Which is why I find it so offensive when all these nitwit Snowflakes make a big show of being "on the spectrum." My cousin's son is autistic. I know what it is. I know what it looks like. I know the pain parents have because it becomes very difficult to get close to their kids who have this condition. But he (Kyle) is a capable fellow and works full time in a place that reconditions breathing masks (of some kind). He's kind but (if you've ever seen Atypical on Netflix, Kyle shares a lot of traits with Sam. You're just never going to get touchy-feely with them. (And, oddly, his mother doesn't seem to make it any easier for him.)
The show is interesting because some of the greatest triumphs (by either the dad or mom) are those times when they can share something with their son. And in the series, they work so hard to create those moments but are often disappointed when they don't come. An autistic child is like a force of nature. They are clearly experiencing reality in a slightly different way. And it's hard for the rest of us to sort of join in. But, over time, Kyle has adjusted fairly well. |
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 25, 2023 20:07:36 GMT -8
LOL. She knows you well, it seems.
The only thing I am reasonable "savant" about is putting ideas into words. I don't think it's special but often get comments about how well I've described something. Having read really good writers and seen some really good speakers, I know what excellent looks like. I'll just say I'm "good."
Oh you've definitely got some Beethoven-like savant abilities there. If it's in the same ballpark, I have jingles I can't get out of my head that I heard 50 years ago. Not literally (as in going cuckoo) but I can recall them. But, geez, it's amazing what kind of stuff you can remember in basically CD-quality sound while I can't remember where I laid my car keys five minutes ago.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 25, 2023 20:12:37 GMT -8
It can make some difference if you notice the problem early and do some intervention. But many people have no idea of the problem until later.
It has been my experience that many autistic people like routine and can become nervous if this is not followed. Even a book out of place can disturb them. Many autistic people do no like to be touched or noise. A person should never approach an autistic person and try to give him a hug. It can trigger a "meltdown." If that person approaches you for a hug, fine.
I find it best to sit quietly and don't move quickly around autistic people. This generally puts them more at ease. But it isn't always successful.
One very irritating characteristic of many autistic people is their persistence. If they want something, they will often pester someone constantly until they get it. There is no ill will, just desire.
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kungfuzu
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Autism
Jan 25, 2023 20:21:13 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jan 25, 2023 20:21:13 GMT -8
This is an important talent and I find most people are not very good at it. Leading by example is good, but a person's circle is generally pretty small, so if one wishes to have any effect on large numbers of people, one has to be good at speaking or writing.
This was one of the problems with having conversations with myself. I would go through everything in my mind and then think others have heard what I said and know what I know. It's a good thing I don't do this a lot these days.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Autism
Jan 26, 2023 8:11:06 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 26, 2023 8:11:06 GMT -8
Of course, this is all about me, Me, MEEE! But that's my understanding as well. And I can't help wondering if "autism" is a part of the soup that gives us our abilities. Yes, it bugs me when something is out of place. Probably not to the extent of Hercule Poirot who regularly puts into order the mantelpieces of homes he visits. It's not excessive. It's the desire to be organized and not live like a pig. My younger brother has the exact opposite (or lacks that bit of autistic compulsiveness). I honest to god don't know how he can live with such disorder.
They play that angle well in the Atypical series as well. The pandemic might have been a godsend for those who are truly autistic because the current culture wants to hug everyone at a drop of a hat. Now people tend to keep their distance a little more.
With my cousin, she always tried to micromanage her son. If we were, say, just out throwing the football around she'd find a way to get involved and tell him what to do better. A certain amount of this is understandable but it's not always helpful. She comes from a family where her parents were pretty much a constant stream of low-level criticism and unceasing advice. We used to joke about my uncle. No matter how inappropriate or un-asked-for, he was always there with advice. And his subtle criticism was non-stop.
I have great sympathy for those children or adults (and their family) who are struggling with some form of autism. A guy such as Joe Biden is considered "normal." In that context, I do not look at those with autism as being "abnormal" but just sort of different.
Also, it's obvious that many conditions are absolutely nobody's fault. But you have to wonder how much drug use is creating autism and other maladies.
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Brad Nelson
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Autism
Jan 26, 2023 8:15:26 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 26, 2023 8:15:26 GMT -8
From what Jordan Peterson was saying, I'm guessing you two have much in common in the way you think.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 12, 2024 19:48:05 GMT -8
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Autism
Apr 13, 2024 9:17:35 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 13, 2024 9:17:35 GMT -8
That says it all. Or almost.
Not for a moment do I doubt that autistic people have a special skill, or potentially so (in varying degrees). But I think it's worth noting that it's unlikely most have better skills than a "normally-abled" person. These are people who have difficulty doing what is relatively easy for you or me.
So I would guess that most of the productivity increases and reduction in errors is the result of people (whatever their abilities) who are motivated, happy in their work, and want to do a good job.
I see more and more quote "normal" people in jobs who I am in contact with constantly with suppliers. These "normal" people are as dumb as a rock and probably just as motivated. They are slouches and their work is full of errors. Please don't ask me to give examples. It's too infuriating to deal with.
Of course, many of these same slobs (liberals, for sure) do not like the idea of former "victims" being useful. One commenter said:
Again, not that those "on the spectrum" don't often have special skills of attention. But I would say they have somewhat of an unfair advantage over the "normals." They haven't likely been taught that they are victims, that life should just hand them what they want, that business is evil, etc.
Not to discount the work being done by those "on the spectrum" (I have a nephew who exactly matches what this article is talking about), but to some extent it shows you how poor our "normal" workforce is if the disabled can improve on them. And clearly in this case with this company they have.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 13, 2024 10:00:14 GMT -8
My first thought when I saw the 90% reduction in errors and 30% improvement in productivity was "perhaps it is a slight exaggeration." My rationale was that everyone wants to show that they are succeeding and for those who deal with the handicapped, this desire is magnified by the hope to disprove the public's negative attitude toward autism. But after thinking about it a bit, I am convinced that the man's claim is true.
I did not detect any hint of the video hinting that "most" autistic people have better skills than normal people. The piece was very specific about some autistic people who could function well in a certain setting. In this setting, they very well could have better skills than normal people. I, for one, could not do what these people are doing. It would drive me crazy. I dislike constant repetition. I can do detail work, but am not by nature someone who enjoys it. In the situation presented, they certainly have better skills than I would have. It is like the old British racing saying, "horses for courses." If you watch the video carefully, you will note different degrees of autism in the various people.
That said, the point of the video was not that autistic people are special, rather that unlike what many believe, many autistic people want to be, and can be, productive members of society. They want to contribute and be responsible people.
This man, is doing God's work. He is letting people who are normally shunned and shunted aside by society, integrate into society and make a contribution. This helps them both emotionally and economically. I can't begin to tell you how much it helps their families.
If this is coming about, at least partially, due to the low level of today's worker, then so be it. We can then be thankful that these autistic people are there to take the place of slackers who leach off others and whose main contribution to society is consumption.
This commentator is clearly a leftist, loser scumbag. It must be galling and terribly embarrassing to know that one is so useless as to be bettered by those one looks down on.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 13, 2024 11:07:23 GMT -8
If you had the experiences that I do with some of my suppliers, you wouldn't find those stats too hard to believe, although I agree that the employer may also be trying to praise his workers with a little harmless exaggeration.
Yes, we shouldn't turn all people "on the spectrum" into the Rain Man. We're certainly talking about a subset who are able to do the specific job or jobs at that company.
However, I've done the kind of repetitive work that would drive you crazy. Hand collating is one of those jobs (which we rarely need to do these days for other reasons). And I've tried in the past hiring people to do it and have almost always met with disaster. "Normal" people just can't be bothered to concentrate and have an attention to detail. The work is "boring" and thus somehow beneath them to treat it seriously. But the job had to be done, and done right, so I would usually do it myself.
I think with many "on the spectrum," you don't have these attitude problems which I think could account for most of the decrease in productivity and increase in errors by the "normals." Those "on the spectrum" have no conception that some sort of job (repetitive or otherwise) is beneath them.
But I did have one worker (sadly passed several years ago) who was outstanding. She was a "normal." But she was also an exception to the rule.
Yep. And if word gets out that many people "on the spectrum" can do better work than "normals," then that's good for them as well. And I think most people would have more patience working with someone "on the spectrum" with a good and helpful attitude than the many yutes I've run into for whom even talking to you over the phone seems an imposition to them.
Believe me, I'm inundated by comments from other businesses. They just can't find good people willing to do a day's work for a day's pay. God bless these people "on the spectrum" who can be productive. And hopefully this becomes a trend and more types of jobs can be fitted to those whose abilities may be a little more limited.
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