Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 2, 2023 18:50:39 GMT -8
Hannibal: A History of the Art of War Among the Carthaginians and Romans Down to the Battle of Pydna, 168 B.C., With a Detailed Account of the Second Punic War I'm reading the free Kindle sample of this. And so far it's fairly interesting and well written. The author scores low on the namby-pamby meter, not afraid to offer his opinion. And I like that. He doesn't think all that much of Carthage and its people, although he notes that Hannibal (and his father, Hamilcar Barca) were bright spots. Aristole wrote about Carthage, "a democracy inclining toward an oligarchy." He assesses the Roman system of citizen-soldier to be far superior to that of Carthage's reliance on mercenaries. But Carthage had her day (her centuries) and had a powerful navy and army. Things change. Sounds scarily like us. The author also writes: Say what you will about these conclusions – I don't know enough to say otherwise – I like that an author is analyzing history and giving an opinion. Too often the modern biography or history is a run-on cluster of vapid non-commitalism, as if having an opinion or giving an analysis was not considered "scholastic." I'll probably purchase this because it's only about three dollars. And this is an event and person I don't know all that much about. What started me on this book was watching Victor Mature in the title role of 1959's Hannibal. They try to turn this into a "Big Hollywood Epic." But they have neither the money, the writers, nor a strong cast of characters. This is a pretty awful movie. But I was intrigued by the subject matter and so tried to find a good book on the topic. The author may be a little hard on Carthage, for compared to what? They were all a bunch of vicious bastards back then. From what I gather, Carthage frittered away much of its power and wealth in the attempt to acquire all of Sicily. And that endeavor, of course, led to making an enemy out of Rome (which, frankly, didn't take much in those days).
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 2, 2023 19:49:59 GMT -8
Sounds like an interesting book. I can understand that the author is not too enamored of Carthage as the Carthaginians and their forefathers the Phonecians were a bunch of child-sacrificing savages. Moloch was a Phoenician/Canaanite idol. Scipio Africanus did a good job on them. One of the things I like about the study of history is that one doesn't have to had read the "latest" book about something, or someone, in order to be well informed. Of course there are numerous recent history books which are worthwhile, but reading a book on Roman History written 80-100 years back will give anyone, who is interested, a good idea of the time. Much of what is written today is simply an author trying to put a "modern" slant on things in order to sell books. There is also the trend to dumb-down serious subjects in order to gain a more wide-spread audience. I can guarantee that the majority of today's yutes would have great difficulty reading any history written in the 19th century. The language is much more sophisticated than that which one generally encounters in modern books.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 2, 2023 20:15:42 GMT -8
Interesting article:
Answer me one question, Dr. Quinn: Are you for or against the chemical or surgical mutilation of children under the umbrella of "transgenderism"?
Parents agree to this stuff all over the place these days. Can you "recapture" that, Dr. Quinn? It's happening now. Please explain.
What a stupid cunt. Sorry. Leviticus 18:21: "“’Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD." Killing children as an offering to God is inherently insane and evil. It's good that the Old Testament spells it out. But they really shouldn't have to.
We abort babies by the millions today, giving Molek a share of children that he could never have imagined. Do you support abortion, Dr. Quinn? "Well, it's hard to imagine how people looked at things 2,500 years ago," so says some idiot academic in the year 4,500 about us today.
Sheer sloppy speculation. Did they not still do this in the eastern Phoenician lands, particularly Tyre? I don't know the answer to that question. But if you're going to pull speculative stuff like this out of your ass, you should have this particular bit of knowledge at hand.
Now, this current book does note that from time to time (sometimes because of an unhappy faction) that colonizers set off to found a new trading post, colony, or city. And the author speculates that Carthage was likely formed by a large portion of upper class (or political class) because of certain advantages and refinement that he says Carthage had from the get-go.
I'll let you know if the author mentions child sacrifice in this.
Okay, give Dr. Quinn some credit for writing an article that at least admits that child sacrifice was going on. Funny that things such as slavery are never seen "in context" and that "people looked at it differently 2,500 years ago." Can you imagine a writer like this soft-pedaling slavery?
Just shows how much Molek there is in our society.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 2, 2023 20:31:43 GMT -8
Questions that comes to mind: "Was the world full of psychopaths 2,500 years ago? Is it more full of them today?"
I would bet 10 to 1 that Dr. Quinn is a "progressive" i.e. one of those people who believe in the theory that mankind can and should move forward, improve and become "better" meaning more moral in the way that they understand moral. That she tries to make excuses for the crime of child sacrifice shows she knows it is wrong.
But these same people are quite happy today to basically revert to, and approve, barbaric practices, such as abortion, which they logically should have disavowed given their "belief" in progress.
They seem to think they can move forward by going backward. The lack of self-awareness is stunning. Or perhaps they are just dishonest.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 2, 2023 20:53:08 GMT -8
This paragraph from that article on child sacrifice in Carthage demonstrates what I mean about older books on history being as well, or better, informed as more recent books.
The claim that Greek and Roman reports on Carthagian child sacrifice were "racist propaganda" is very low brow Marxist. Many of those writing history had become so inculcated with the Marxist view of history that they would could write such crap unconsciously. It is something that would arise out of the Communist tool of pitting minorities against majorities in the attempt to destroy traditional and free market societies. That the claim is a lie is easily shown by the fact that child sacrifice was still going on in Phoenicia at the time, as Brad noted.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 3, 2023 7:09:11 GMT -8
There is no question of that. Whatever errors occur in earlier eras, they can't match the endemic intellectual dishonesty and moral confusion of the present era. This isn't pining for the nostalgia of another era. It's recognizing that most of what is considered "scholarly" is simply a severely skewed view of history via Cultural Marxism. According to this entry, this book in question was published in 1891. It's difficult to tell from the Amazon listing because they list 2012 for the eBook and 2015 for the hardcover. But I assumed that this book was much older than that. And, indeed, apparently it is. The author clearly has an affinity for the Romans: The problem with finishing this 682 page book is me. Already this is full of minutia and I might find it hard to stay with it. I prefer histories painted with broader strokes rather than yet another retelling of how the Roman soldier was equipped. And the descriptions are fine, as far as it goes. But this is a case where a picture (or illustration) would be worth a thousand words in regards to Roman formations and such. He does paint a good picture early-on about how integral military service was to the Romans. It was indeed a commitment. But it was considered an honor. And by the time you reached the age of 17 where service was mandatory, you had already trained a lifetime for this. The author says the Roman culture and style surpassed even the Spartans in terms of military effectiveness. Flash forward 2500 years or so when our military leaders put an emphasis on Weirdos, not combat effectiveness. I don't think the Romans could have ever understood us or would have wanted to.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 3, 2023 8:15:31 GMT -8
If the Romans were around today, I think they would be licking their chops at the prospect of conquering a decadent, yet still wealthy society. During the late Republic, early empire, I believe the Roman Legion was very possibly the finest military fighting machine that ever took the battlefield. Disciplined yet adaptive.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 3, 2023 9:00:41 GMT -8
I believe this book should be seen as one of the original popular histories about the Roman soldier, not another retelling. Of course there had been histories written about the Roman Empire before this time, but most were written for the scholar. One should also not forget that many of the readers of ancient history at the time read Latin and Greek, so didn't need English translations. Through the wonders of Kindle, you are now able to read one of the earlier popular studies on the Roman soldier, on which later books were, no doubt, based or borrowed from. As a side note, the book you are reading is part of a larger study of war which the author wrote over many years. The author was an American who has served in the Civil War. (For the North) He died in 1909 while living in Europe.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 3, 2023 9:57:06 GMT -8
I think we all know a bit about the Roman legions from books, articles, and even movies. We often see it in its finished form, as you've mentioned--the late Republic, early empire.
It's interesting to read about some of the incremental developments. For instance, early-on the Roman army was not apparently big on building fortified locations when on the move and needing to stop for the night. They later, of course, became obsessive about it.
The legions, as you all know, varied in number and arrangement. The "century" wasn't made of up a 100 men for all that long, and things such as that. They were constantly evolving to "what works." Perhaps that's what made them so good. Like a lot of others, they first copied the Greeks, who obviously had a major presence on the Iberian Italic peninsula early-on. But the Romans were innovators and not slavishly beholden to a military tradition other than the centrality of the legions and military service. It seems it was many times after a disaster or defeat that some no innovation or practice was adopted.
The author talks of others (including Carthage) trying to copy Alexander. This is exacerbated by the fact that they didn't have all that much good information on how Alexander was doing (or did) what he did. The Romans used cavalry but thought of them as decidedly second tier:
You mentioned Scipio Africanus. In relation to cavalry, the author writes:
Before that time, it seems that the Roman cavalry spend quite a bit of their time fighting when dismounted.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 3, 2023 11:05:04 GMT -8
That's the type of detail I like. Others who read R&T may not have studied as much history as we three. I think they might like to hear some of the details without having to delve into historical tomes. Although I am not a big user of social media, I have seen few sites which have the broad experience, breath of interest and general learning that is present at R&T. If that sounds arrogant, I apologize, but I call's em like I sees em.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 3, 2023 15:59:51 GMT -8
Of course I meant the Italic, Apennine or Italian Peninsula. Duh.
Your ability to absorb and enjoy dense tomes is way beyond mine. If I had my druthers (and if I could make it pay), I would love to take a book such as Hannibal and summarize it for those who don't have patience for the minutia but would like to be educated in the overall.
Yes, I think what we do here is worthy. It's not the rot you see on "social" media. Basically, intercourse of nearly any type has been ruined out there. There is little gentlemanly or scholarly behavior left these days.
A friend I hadn't seen for year visited the office last Friday. He made that point that it is difficult to talk to people because they are so insistent on their viewpoint. No one wants to listen. They are right and there is no room for anyone to be able to tell them anything. He put it down to the country being "polarized." I corrected him. I told him it was because there was one political party that has been working hard for over forty years to infuse the culture with angst, grievance, anger, ignorance, and just rotten politics. (I did not talk about the other party that basically rolled over and played dead.)
The author is not enamored by the Carthaginians, characterizing them as basically soulless capitalists. Hey, we know a few of those on Wall Street and ten thousand other places. They would burn down our nation for a buck. It's not just George Soros wreaking havoc.
I really didn't know much about Carthage to start with. But the author makes it clear it existed for two reasons, and was exception in fulfilling those two reasons: agriculture and trade.
Their geographic location kept them at arm's length from the squabble of other powers for quite a while. Eventually Rome was going to be a factor no matter what they did. Early days, but that is apparently something that Hamilcar Barca had in mind when he expanded into Spain. As Wiki notes: "He may have been responsible for creating the strategy which his son Hannibal implemented in the Second Punic War to bring the Roman Republic close to defeat."[/quote]
One factoid I found interesting is that, after having lost the first war with Rome, when Hannibal was marshaling his forces to invade Rome via the alps, he had to march his troops across North Africa to the Pillars of Hercules and then ferry them across. In the old days, they would have departed aboard a few hundred ships directly from the harbor in Carthage. And although Carthage had rebounded since the first war, her navy was nowhere near what it was.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 3, 2023 19:36:56 GMT -8
While the Greek colonies were more abundant across southern Italy and Sicily, they also had settlements on the Iberian Peninsula. The Phoenicians were there first, but the Greeks followed.
There is some evidence that the Phoenicians made it to Cornwall in order to buy tin. The tin mines of Cornwall were still operating just a few decades ago. Having been closely connected to the tin business, I love that type of history.
I have always had the ability to mentally place myself in the histories or novels I am reading. I don't mean a little bit. I mean I can get so involved as to just about believe I am there taking part in the narrative. A teacher I had in a summer course noticed this when I was 12 years old. Once I have enough information about a person or subject, I can formulate a meta-verse. I have never needed technology to do this. Luckily, I can step out of that virtual world when I want to. But being able to do this makes what might be dry reading for others, very real for me. I don't just read what happened, I feel it, experience it. It is not day dreaming. I can do that as well.
I enjoy broad brush history, but often find that the explanations as to why things happened, this or that way, are lacking or superficial. Let me give an example. In the English historical tradition, Napoleon has generally been blamed for trying to conquer Europe out of purely egomaniacal motives. The reader is often left to question why he didn't stop when he was ahead.
There is little doubt that Bonaparte had a huge ego and chose to cross some lines and go to some places he had better left alone. But if one looks at it more closely, one can clearly see that no matter what he tried, the British and various aristocratic houses of Europe would have hounded him, Republican France and the Empire to the end. The only viable option he ever had was to completely subject all of continental Europe. "Perfidious Albion" would never rest as long as there was any chance to ally with any power and defeat Napoleon. Even then they would not have given up. In effect, Napoleon's choices were 1)give up the Revolution and allow the Bourbons to return to the throne or 2) fight to the end. There was no in between. This came to me very powerfully sometime in the last year after having read a few books, not all of which were directly related to the period.
I want to get to why and how things happened, and how the relation between the how and why effects things. Everything is connected. Although I cannot see all the connections I want to see as many as I can, for sure the important connections. The study of history helps me see contemporary connections which I likely would have missed. The more I read, the more I see there is to learn.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 4, 2023 8:16:24 GMT -8
I didn't know that. Where hasn't a Greek been? Including places he should not be. If you have a precious metal, it seems that word gets around. On one of the Victorian Farm series, they take a visit to Cornwall and explore one of the mines. I think it was a tin mine. Interesting history. I guess we could call that "Deep Reading." It sounds like a nice thing to have. As for Napoleon, for some, the will to conquer has no limits. These types just keep going until they can go no more. It could be as simple as that. And perhaps this megalomania was recognized by the British and others and they took suitable action. No doubt there were some protection-of-monarchy elements as well. Napoleon, whatever his megalomania, was upsetting that particular apple cart.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 4, 2023 9:15:50 GMT -8
If it was in Cornwall, you can be about 100% sure it was a tin mine. The U.K. is not rich in metallic ores. Coal and a number of different clays are what I am familiar with. I used to deal with the last tin smelter in the U.K., but at that time it was the world leader in treating complex and dirty ores. Tin is required to make bronze so it was vital for the bronze age. I think it is, but it can cause me to get so involved that I don't notice that hours have gone by while I have been reading. The apple cart is what's most important. For hundreds of years, the Brits' main foreign policy goal was the so-called "balance of power" on the European Continent. The Revolution in France upset this, because it released the idea of "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity" across the board, including England. Things got worse when the French executed Louis and Marie Antoinette. But the moment the French started exporting the Revolution and kicking the asses of various enemy armies, from Italy to Germany the die was absolutely cast. From that time forward, the Brits were never going to let things go. Their commercial interests around the world were at stake and for these interests they were willing to pay, and ally themselves with, any and everyone. This started was before Napoleon was of any great importance. In some regards, it might be seen, in part, as a continuation of the centuries old rivalry between France and England which went back to the struggles between the French kings and the Plantagenets of England. (12th to 15th centuries.)
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 26, 2023 14:05:08 GMT -8
I'm still reading a bit of this book now and then. It's not highly interesting in the whole. But parts of it are good. Here's a simple question: How do you know when you're having a really bad day?Well, it's when (in the second of the three major battles between Rome and Greece's Pyrrhus) your elephants turn on you and you lose the battle.
There is something distinctly Monty Pythonesque about that story.
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