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Post by artraveler on Sept 15, 2023 13:33:56 GMT -8
In a few hours, depending on location, our new year will begin. In traditional communities and households this is a time of reflection and self examination concluding with Yom Kipper. This 10 days is referred to as the days of awe, or high holy days. The new year is marked by the sounding of the shofar, a horn of a ram, and apples dipped in honey to symbolize the sweetness of life. As a secular Jew my participation in ritual is limited but I recognize the importance of ritual to the community and to individuals. May the next year be better than past ones and may all my friends prosper with long life.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 15, 2023 14:05:36 GMT -8
You beat me to it. I can only second your thoughts.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 15, 2023 16:21:11 GMT -8
No apology needed for being a secular Jew. Apologies are needed, however, for liberal Jews.
When I first went (was dragged to) Church as a youngster, I was in very scary and old-school surroundings. This was not yet the time of Libtardville churches, rainbows on the bulletin board, and Kumbaya doctrine. There was sin, sinners, and that almighty thing called "God." Churches were ornate, golden, candle-encrusted, and little appeared welcoming or familiar.
I was naturally shy as it was and afraid of my own shadow. But the entire enterprise of "church" scared the bejeezus out of me. It had nothing to do with "fear of God" in any classical or biblical sense. It's just that the entire event was foreign to me...and definitely seemed to be an adult thing. So I must have been thinking at the time, "Why in the hell am I here?"
Now that I'm older...I know I wasn't wrong. This was not the early Pauline church where people got together (often secretively) in their own homes and intimately studied the Bible among friends and (presumably) with direct feedback if you had questions.
The church of my yute could have been described as herding cattle into the corral. You sat there, shut up, maybe sang some hymns, went home and (presumably) the elders were well satisfied that they had done the "church" thing and could check that off the list.
I found nothing warm or gracious about it at the time. And I still don't. Believe me, I get a front row (well, downstairs row) of what passes for "church" every week. And this one I know is likely heads and tails above most. But it's still the same (to my ear) soulless venture of lecturer and pew-sitter.
So yes, my dear Artler, there is a church or synagogue, and it lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten thousand, there will still be people uncomfortable in church or synagogue, who are frightened of the whole enterprise, or have lived a complex life where the seemingly simple nostrums of religion don't carry much meaning or weight.
Virginia...err...I mean Artler, you may tear apart the Snowflake's phone and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest cisgender man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest cisgender men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Artler, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.
צו געזונט , my friends. There is a something behind the veil. Let's all take part in Rosh Hashanah from the non-conforming bleachers of our armchairs or couches.
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me. If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,” Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.
Psalm 139:7-12
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 15, 2023 19:28:20 GMT -8
I can vaguely remember going to Church even before we moved to Texas. That means I can remember going to Church at the age of 3 at the latest. As such, I never found it at all intimidating. It was part of life.
The congregations were small and autonomous. There was, as is, no episcopal hierarchy. There were only the members, who elected their deacons and elders. Everyone knew everyone else.
Particularly in those days, most Churches of Christ were located in very simple buildings. The inside was generally white, had pews and a pulpit up front from which someone led the singing (a cappella) and the preacher gave the sermon. There was a baptismal font up front generally on the opposite side of the pulpit.
Churches of Christ are seriously anti-idol worship. There are no crucifixes, statues or pictures in the Church. When our congregation grew so much that we had to build a new chapel there was a serious discussion about whether or not it would have a simple, abstract stained glass window upfront behind the altar. The stained-glass crew won out, but I still think it was a mistake.
We had Sunday school, which was divided according to one's age. After that came the sermon. There was much socializing before Sunday School as well as before and after the sermon. The Lord's Supper was taken every Sunday. It consisted of matzo and grape juice. No alcoholic beverages for us.
In addition to Sunday morning service, we also had Sunday night service and Wednesday night service.
As I grew into my teens, I began to find the sermons boring and too many of the people phony. (That people were phony should not have any effect on believe, in my opinion.) Phonies abound in life. The message is what counts. Over time, I drifted away from it all, but I have not forgotten much of what I learned in those early years.
Over the decades, I have run into many ex-Christians (if one can call them that) who resent the Church, resent people trying to convert them or talk to them about Christianity. I find this very silly. Why should I resent someone who has my well being at heart and is willing to take the time to talk to me about it? In fact, I find it somewhat touching. Most people don't give a damn about others.
I hold no resentment for Christianity or bad memories of going to Church. In fact, I think it would be absolutely wonderful to be able to believe in the Christian message. It would make life much easier. I don't mean physically, I mean spiritually and philosophically. Knowing the way, the truth and the life would lift a huge burden off everyone, I am sure. Having the answers to all the questions would be so satisfying. Oh well....
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 15, 2023 19:39:41 GMT -8
Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6 Give me a child until he is seven, and I will show you the man.AristotleGive me the child for the first seven years and I'll give you the man.Supposedly said by St. Ignatius Loyola Give me a child for the first five years of his life, and he will be mine forevery. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov aka Lenin
The above quotes are testimony to the work the left is doing in the education system. You and I are perhaps the famous "exceptions to the rule." Of all the above sayings, I think the one from Proverbs is closest to the truth. I believe that as we approach death, we do tend to go back to what we learned as children.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 15, 2023 21:35:42 GMT -8
It's not my job to convert, of course. In fact, I'm not at all sure what I'd being converting you to.
What I will say is that there is a legitimate place between bible-thumping believer and alienated-angry atheist. That place has usually gone unrecognized or ill-defined.
Our culture is pretty stupid, and perhaps always has been. I think what is usually derogatorily regarded as "agnostic" is really, "Lord, I want to believe, but life has handed me so much shit, my pitchfork blades are worn down. There's just no more hay in the loft."
That might be a mixed barnyard metaphor. I'll have to send it through ChatGPT to find out. Whatever the case may be, there is a maxim in Christianity (could equally apply to Judaism) that when we dispense with all our little false-gods, we start to get to the real deal.
Prosperity Gospel, for instance, is the false god of avarice wrapped up in the clothing of the holy. I personally think that black churches that engage in all the shouting are perhaps engaging in the same sort of "Church as Entertainment" that has overtaken much of the Christian churches who have sound systems rivaling what The Rolling Stones must have started out with.
I'm still executing some of my false gods, here and there. The "God as wish fulfiller" died some time back. The "God as personal guidance counselor" met a similar fate. But the tipping point comes. A time of judgment. Whether we take the red pill or the blue pill. Will it be as Frank said, "All or nothing at all"?
And often escaping that false choice is as simple as getting a handle on the concept of the apophatic...understanding God from what he is not rather than jumping to the operational negation of god (atheism, in its various forms). Many say all we need is a "leap of faith." Perhaps. But the world we live in is not so simple and binary – believe or not believe. And to find oneself living in that smeared-out gray space is neither surprising nor cause for apologies.
I'm not the church-going type, whatever I may believe. I'm perhaps a bit like Artler (I assume). I have a reflexive distrust of the groupmind. And that, in my opinion, is what you'll find in church.
But I don't want the group mind. Frankly, I don't need others (well, maybe you guys) to figure this stuff out. The difference is, unlike atheists, I don't sneer at the religious for their sometimes simple ways and beliefs, for I know that at least they are on better philosophical ground than even the most intellectual atheist (and, frankly, I have never run across a thoughtful atheist).
So God, who surely exists in some form, perhaps is (I hope you're sitting down for this) bigger than any church can hold. I think He can carve out a space for those who hold him at arm's length but don't totally let go. I think the parable of the prodigal son is one of the most powerful stories in the Bible.
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 16, 2023 7:57:35 GMT -8
It probably doesn't do to disagree with Jesus. But here's the entire The Parable of the Lost Son: Maybe Jesus was misquoted, or the point of this story was misread. Or maybe at some time someone wanted a different outcome and thus jiggered the story elements. When I read this, I see a libtard father who is extremely tone-deaf as to what his loyal son thought about all this. The son had every right to be peeved. The father's forgiveness did not have to include humiliating his loyal son like that. The core message of this story could be, "Be as sinful and irresponsible as you want. You will not only be rewarded the same as the just, you will receive superior rewards." Of course, it's likely the point of the story is that no one is beyond salvation. One need not be tied to one's missteps forever. And that's a fine message. I just wonder why this parable seemed to go out of its way to humiliate and disrespect the loyal son. Why not have the father demand that first the wayward son seek the blessing of his brother? That could have solved a host of ills and negated the story that followed which is likely, "The Bitter Brother Who Tasted Bile for the Rest of his Life." There also seems to be a modern liberal message of "Your feel-good emotions of the moment trump all other considerations." Am I being unreasonable? Still, it's a nice thought that despite our mistakes (perhaps this includes God's mistakes as well...I don't know) we can reconcile.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 16, 2023 10:53:46 GMT -8
I'm perhaps a bit like Artler (I assume). Ok, as long as I'm considered the handsome one. I have been through a number of stages from the 60s radical to the 90s conservative and religiously much the same. At one time I seriously considered entering a very orthodox community. The Marines and subsequent events, mostly overseas, changed that. The mid to late 70s I was mostly agnostic. When I met the love of my life I thought there must be some higher power guiding us together. It was my misfortune to convince her that Zionism was not just an intellectual concept and that our people had every right to live, as Jewish a life as we chose. How could I ever tell her not to go to Israel? There are numerous reasons why I did not go with her, all of them valid and logical. Still I regret not going. As a kind of expat Israeli I still have a valid passport. It would have been no problem on a political basis. She was determined to make her own life in Israel and she loved Israel more than she love me. I can accept that. I did then,I do now. It was the high holy days of 96. She was returning home from Hebrew University and was kidnapped by a Palestinian and murdered. That was the time I quit talking to G-d. It's not like I suddenly became an atheist, or even agnostic. But I cannot forgive letting this fine woman die in a horrific manner. I respect His will and power, but this was a line I can not cross. He does his thing and I do mine. Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipper reflect a time of self-examination for the Jewish soul. We are asked to consider our lives and the lives of family and friends. We do not expect to make perfect changes but to make incremental changes for the better. To be a better father, husband, brother or friend. It is I believe the entire intent of all our literature and philosophy to make the world a little better when we leave it than we found when we were born. Indeed, isn't that the goal of all true religion? Yet, look how that simple goal has been perverted by political events, the need to put butts in the pews and yes, unscrupulous religious leaders. My time is nearly over. I hope that nothing worse will be said of me then, "he saw to justice when he could and was loved"
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 16, 2023 13:01:59 GMT -8
Normally I'd reach to Frank (or perhaps a Psalms) for a relevant quote. In this case, I'm going to reach for Rick:
Mr. Kung has a bugaboo (as do I) about those who say, "But I have no regrets." Baloney. If you've ever done anything in life, you'll have plenty of regrets. And victories. And joys. And loves. And losses, and a bunch of smeared-out gray in between which was just going from one moment to the next, as best you can. I can't understand ChatGPT. How am I going to understand God Almighty? Or this universe? How do we make perfect choices when we are almost always faced with imperfect circumstances?
Yell at him them. Prager says "Israel" means "struggle with god." And I love that quote he's brought up a time or two: "If God lived on earth, people would break his windows."
If we had expansive souls and perfect vision, we'd be able to integrate the love and the loss, the God of Creation and the God of Destruction and Death. But I can't. I've watched a number of "Touched by an Angel" episodes over the years. And it's very touching to see pain, anguish, regret, bitterness, and alienation transformed, at the end, into love. That's the kind of God I want (and Monica's not half bad looking either).
What we have is this, well, "crazy world" where the problems of two people often doesn't amount to a hill of beans. But it's our beans. And sometimes the wounds go so deep, they become part of us. And if we got rid of them, we'd be faced with the quandary of whether we were still ourselves.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 16, 2023 15:08:04 GMT -8
In the end, it would seem we are the sum total of our biology, experience and how we react to both. Sometimes this is too much for an individual.
Perhaps something stands outside biology and experience and that would be soul or spirit. Can that help us to rise above ourselves?
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 16, 2023 15:40:33 GMT -8
I have also sometimes found this parable irritating. Justice does not seem to be done. But is it? One tenet common among many Christian denominations is that mankind is irredeemably rotten. So even those who are "good" are not worth the powder it would take to blow them to hell. Thus the father welcoming the prodigal is doing no more than is just because the other son is also rotten, but doesn't understand that.
There is also the question of whether the prodigal learned a hard lesson and suffered much for his foolish decisions. Upon enlightenment (realization that salvation comes through Christ) he was cleansed and brought back into the Kingdom. The good son, because he had not made the same mistakes the prodigal made, had enjoyed all the advantages of salvation, thus had not suffered a bit. He did not understand this and his sinful side grew resentful.
It should also be noted that the wealth/salvation was the father's to give. Not either of the sons had it within their power to grant it.
Note the father's last words to the "good" son.
"My boy," said the father, "you are always with me, and everything I have is yours." How could we fail to celebrate this happy day? Your brother here was dead and has come back to life; he was lost and has been found.
Two things.
1) Other than the tenet that Christ is the Son of God, died for the sins of mankind and rose from the dead nothing is more important in Christianity than the the tenet that everyone, no matter how depraved, sinful, rotten and hateful they have been can be saved through belief in him and repentance of their sins. Note, I mention repentance of sins. Repentance means acknowledgement of something to be repented of. This is too often left out of modern Christian teaching.
2) This parable very pointedly deals with a father and his sons. I would say it is almost impossible for anyone to understand the full joy a father would feel upon having his "lost" son return to him, ask for forgiveness and simply to be treated as a servant. I can understand the other brother not being so thrilled, but the father wants him to feel the joy as well. Parents are well known for putting up with all sorts of shit from their children, yet still loving them more than anything else.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 17, 2023 12:21:48 GMT -8
This saying goes in my list of favorites.
Something tells me that Jesus would approve of that interpretation.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 17, 2023 13:35:21 GMT -8
I have also sometimes found this parable irritating Well, it is irritating, for all the reasons you cite. There is at least one additional irritation. Parables are meant to be questioned and discussed. By their very nature they are, in general ephemeral, you think you have a handle on it and it whips away with another idea. Most parables, I believe, have their origin in events of real life and following Kung's rule, "life is complicated" The parables that flow out of stories told by parable are complicated. A question we can ask ourselves as we transit our Time Machine to the future, what parables will be told of our times 2000 years from now? Maybe a question for Chat?
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Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 19, 2023 18:17:44 GMT -8
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