|
Post by kungfuzu on Mar 3, 2024 17:25:04 GMT -8
Last night I read the Book of Job. Let me first state that the book could have been edited to about the third of its length without loosing meaning. However, I suppose the writer saw the value of repetition, because both Job and his "friends" Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar and the young smart ass Elihu, are redundant to the extreme.
There were a number of points which I found somewhat confusing. For example, Job 1: 6 states-
The day came when the members of the court of heaven took their places in the presence of the Lord, and the Adversary, Satan, was there among them....
Clearly, Satan has already fallen, else why use the word Adversary? So why would God allow the adversary to sit at or even attend the court of heaven?
Why does God praise Job to Satan's face, as he must know doing so will only provoke Satan to sneer at Job's righteousness as cheap. Then God basically says go ahead crush the man and see how he reacts.
Like anyone else who has read the book, I find this impossible to understand.
Believers have long assumed the lesson to be taken from Job is one which is repeated throughout the Bible.
Here is a quote from Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I am fully aware that the Creator is so far above humanity as to be incomprehensible to any of us. Nevertheless, I am still at a loss as to why he would allow creatures made in his image to be so wantonly abused by evil.
I find it somewhat distasteful that as a reward God simply gives Job double the blessings he had before. Perhaps it is supposed to be a great privilege for one to suffer for no apparent reason. Does capricious seem too strong a word?
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 11,070
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 4, 2024 9:54:01 GMT -8
A lot of the Bible repeats itself over and over. "Mr. Kung hath spoken thus. And thus has Mr. Kung spoken. Upon a myriad of subjects the noted Mr. Kung has prophesized. And many listened as he spoke. And the things he spoke were many. And these then are the things that Mr. Kung spoke:" Am I right or am I right? God may have been speaking of your average, run-of-the-mill lawyer in terms of the court of heaven. We call them Shylocks. He calls them Satan. I guess. I haven't read that book lately. But that seems as good of a summing-up as could be. My older brother sees God in terms of running an ant farm. Didn't we all have those as kids? Of course, my older brother (who did not turn out to be a psychopath, we can be glad) would sometimes mix some red ants in with the black ants just to see them battle, so I do understand his analogy. That clearly seems to capture much of recorded history. God looks on from above and allows evil to run amok...for purposes we can only imagine. "If God lived on earth, people would break his windows" is a common saying and apparently an old Jewish proverb. Israel means "One who struggles with god." Oh, the whole Jobs affair seems quite capricious. What we might say in defense or to provide context is that this is a human story trying to come to terms with why evil exists and why good people so often are victims of it. If this was directly from God, it would seem he was having an off-day. Even so, it's a strange story.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Mar 4, 2024 13:15:28 GMT -8
True enough, but it cannot compete with the Koran as far as repetition goes.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Mar 4, 2024 13:37:59 GMT -8
The day came when the members of the court of heaven took their places in the presence of the Lord, and the Adversary, Satan, was there among them....
The Rabbis of the Talmud struggled over this passage also. Their answer is not anymore enlighting. or a typical shrug, and some day we will have a better answer.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Mar 4, 2024 13:41:05 GMT -8
True enough, but it cannot compete with the Koran as far as repetition goes.
Scripture presents a moral and ethical framework the Koran is a militant political document ethics and morals are a secondary concern, sometimes none at all.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 11,070
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 4, 2024 16:12:08 GMT -8
Islam: The morals are tribe-relative. Whatever helps the tribe. Torah: The morals are above and beyond any tribe. The tribe must abide by them, even if this is disadvantageous for the tribe.
Islam: rewards sociopathic lunatics Torah: rewards wisdom
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 11,070
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 4, 2024 21:00:58 GMT -8
That's really a nice passage from Isaiah, Mr. Kung.
There's a spectrum of dealing with the problem of evil. On one extreme is the chipper outlook from Romans: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
On the other end is this story of Job wherein God makes a sport of man's suffering.
One approach of Catholics is to absolve God by saying that there is Natural Evil (floods, physical maladies) and Moral Evil. This distinction, of course, is good as far as it goes. But it must be stated that God set up the rules for this world that allow both to flourish and to apparently be an inherent and inescapable part.
Another offshoot is to say that in order to live a real human life, you need freedom of choice, thus some will choose evil. And if we can imagine a world where everyone was given whatever they wanted whenever they wanted it (a total absence of suffering), you would have little more than dumb cattle. Indeed, we see that today. In fact, the obesity epidemic is evidence of this. We will quickly become fat, dumb, and stupid given half a chance. Without challenges, and even a little suffering, we turn into vegetables.
So you have this story of Job wherein, even given that some of the above may be true, here is one man who gets far more than his share. What point is there in that?
Thus anyone with both compassion and reason will see the inherent strength of the deist argument. We do seem to live in a created universe where the clock was started and then left to run as it may. This may not be the final argument. But it does seem to be a good starting premise.
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Mar 4, 2024 21:40:00 GMT -8
I have come to the conclusion that the best that can be said/assumed of the situation is that it is all a test. God is testing us all, all of the time. Very strenuous at the very least.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 11,070
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 5, 2024 8:18:18 GMT -8
That's quite orthodox doctrine, right? Did you get your report card yet? Is this pass/fail or are we allowed a make-up test? (Isn't that more or less the Catholic idea of Purgatory?) Seriously...we just can't see through that glass, darkly. Reality tends to be a gigantic Rorschach test wherein we read into what things "really are" by are own experience and/or emotional bearing. For some, life is hell. For others it is quite near paradise. For most it is something on that wide spectrum in between, and one's place on that scale tends to change. If our experience or emotional proclivities don't blind us (inherent to atheism), we can deduce some rather large reasonable facts or suppositions: The universe was created and most likely by some intelligence and power that transcends the material world. Few intelligent and thoughtful people would disagree with that. But one's experience on that spectrum is going to have a lot to do with how one thinks about or relates to any purported Creator. And thus we have another spectrum, ranging (roughly) from Deism to Buddy Jesus. And this is quite apart from religion which will add its own take on these basic philosophical insights. God might be evil Allah of Islam who facilitates conquest, slavery, and bloodshed. Or God might be Jehovah who imparts moral laws to people so that they can life a life further toward Heaven on the spectrum. Or God only knows what Hindu teaches, but it seems to be a clusterfuck...which is not really out of place given the strange and indefinable circumstances we find ourselves in. Oh, well, why not…
|
|
|
Post by kungfuzu on Mar 5, 2024 9:12:55 GMT -8
I suppose it is orthodox. But even if one is not orthodox it is the only doctrine which has a somewhat hopeful slant. Other possibilities range from disheartening to terrorizing. I am not claiming one or the other to be true, although one must hope that some sort of benevolence is guiding things, thus chaos is not the aim.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 11,070
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 5, 2024 14:08:24 GMT -8
You need more training to be a demagogue.
Aren't there many stories in the Bible about people being afraid to look at God and/or God warning them about being in His presence? They'll be struck blind. Fall dead to the ground. They'll be deplatformed. That sort of thing?
Yeah...there is an inherent terror there quite apart from any possible malevolent intent. "Fear God" is central to the project. Dennis Prager often notes this. Although "fear of God" has been demonized by the Satanists (in all their guises) because, Gosh, why should we fear someone who is all-benevolent? But they conveniently miss the point that, although He may dispense Grace as He wishes, He is a God of judgment.
If not, then nothing really ultimately does mean anything. However, it's difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile a highly constructed and ordered world with meaningless chaos. The Satanists (for odd reasons) desire the latter not the former.
|
|