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Post by kungfuzu on Mar 3, 2024 17:25:04 GMT -8
Last night I read the Book of Job. Let me first state that the book could have been edited to about the third of its length without loosing meaning. However, I suppose the writer saw the value of repetition, because both Job and his "friends" Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar and the young smart ass Elihu, are redundant to the extreme.
There were a number of points which I found somewhat confusing. For example, Job 1: 6 states-
The day came when the members of the court of heaven took their places in the presence of the Lord, and the Adversary, Satan, was there among them....
Clearly, Satan has already fallen, else why use the word Adversary? So why would God allow the adversary to sit at or even attend the court of heaven?
Why does God praise Job to Satan's face, as he must know doing so will only provoke Satan to sneer at Job's righteousness as cheap. Then God basically says go ahead crush the man and see how he reacts.
Like anyone else who has read the book, I find this impossible to understand.
Believers have long assumed the lesson to be taken from Job is one which is repeated throughout the Bible.
Here is a quote from Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I am fully aware that the Creator is so far above humanity as to be incomprehensible to any of us. Nevertheless, I am still at a loss as to why he would allow creatures made in his image to be so wantonly abused by evil.
I find it somewhat distasteful that as a reward God simply gives Job double the blessings he had before. Perhaps it is supposed to be a great privilege for one to suffer for no apparent reason. Does capricious seem too strong a word?
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Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 4, 2024 9:54:01 GMT -8
A lot of the Bible repeats itself over and over. "Mr. Kung hath spoken thus. And thus has Mr. Kung spoken. Upon a myriad of subjects the noted Mr. Kung has prophesized. And many listened as he spoke. And the things he spoke were many. And these then are the things that Mr. Kung spoke:" Am I right or am I right? God may have been speaking of your average, run-of-the-mill lawyer in terms of the court of heaven. We call them Shylocks. He calls them Satan. I guess. I haven't read that book lately. But that seems as good of a summing-up as could be. My older brother sees God in terms of running an ant farm. Didn't we all have those as kids? Of course, my older brother (who did not turn out to be a psychopath, we can be glad) would sometimes mix some red ants in with the black ants just to see them battle, so I do understand his analogy. That clearly seems to capture much of recorded history. God looks on from above and allows evil to run amok...for purposes we can only imagine. "If God lived on earth, people would break his windows" is a common saying and apparently an old Jewish proverb. Israel means "One who struggles with god." Oh, the whole Jobs affair seems quite capricious. What we might say in defense or to provide context is that this is a human story trying to come to terms with why evil exists and why good people so often are victims of it. If this was directly from God, it would seem he was having an off-day. Even so, it's a strange story.
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Post by kungfuzu on Mar 4, 2024 13:15:28 GMT -8
True enough, but it cannot compete with the Koran as far as repetition goes.
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Post by artraveler on Mar 4, 2024 13:37:59 GMT -8
The day came when the members of the court of heaven took their places in the presence of the Lord, and the Adversary, Satan, was there among them....
The Rabbis of the Talmud struggled over this passage also. Their answer is not anymore enlighting. or a typical shrug, and some day we will have a better answer.
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Post by artraveler on Mar 4, 2024 13:41:05 GMT -8
True enough, but it cannot compete with the Koran as far as repetition goes.
Scripture presents a moral and ethical framework the Koran is a militant political document ethics and morals are a secondary concern, sometimes none at all.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 4, 2024 16:12:08 GMT -8
Islam: The morals are tribe-relative. Whatever helps the tribe. Torah: The morals are above and beyond any tribe. The tribe must abide by them, even if this is disadvantageous for the tribe.
Islam: rewards sociopathic lunatics Torah: rewards wisdom
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Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 4, 2024 21:00:58 GMT -8
That's really a nice passage from Isaiah, Mr. Kung.
There's a spectrum of dealing with the problem of evil. On one extreme is the chipper outlook from Romans: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
On the other end is this story of Job wherein God makes a sport of man's suffering.
One approach of Catholics is to absolve God by saying that there is Natural Evil (floods, physical maladies) and Moral Evil. This distinction, of course, is good as far as it goes. But it must be stated that God set up the rules for this world that allow both to flourish and to apparently be an inherent and inescapable part.
Another offshoot is to say that in order to live a real human life, you need freedom of choice, thus some will choose evil. And if we can imagine a world where everyone was given whatever they wanted whenever they wanted it (a total absence of suffering), you would have little more than dumb cattle. Indeed, we see that today. In fact, the obesity epidemic is evidence of this. We will quickly become fat, dumb, and stupid given half a chance. Without challenges, and even a little suffering, we turn into vegetables.
So you have this story of Job wherein, even given that some of the above may be true, here is one man who gets far more than his share. What point is there in that?
Thus anyone with both compassion and reason will see the inherent strength of the deist argument. We do seem to live in a created universe where the clock was started and then left to run as it may. This may not be the final argument. But it does seem to be a good starting premise.
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Post by kungfuzu on Mar 4, 2024 21:40:00 GMT -8
I have come to the conclusion that the best that can be said/assumed of the situation is that it is all a test. God is testing us all, all of the time. Very strenuous at the very least.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 5, 2024 8:18:18 GMT -8
That's quite orthodox doctrine, right? Did you get your report card yet? Is this pass/fail or are we allowed a make-up test? (Isn't that more or less the Catholic idea of Purgatory?) Seriously...we just can't see through that glass, darkly. Reality tends to be a gigantic Rorschach test wherein we read into what things "really are" by are own experience and/or emotional bearing. For some, life is hell. For others it is quite near paradise. For most it is something on that wide spectrum in between, and one's place on that scale tends to change. If our experience or emotional proclivities don't blind us (inherent to atheism), we can deduce some rather large reasonable facts or suppositions: The universe was created and most likely by some intelligence and power that transcends the material world. Few intelligent and thoughtful people would disagree with that. But one's experience on that spectrum is going to have a lot to do with how one thinks about or relates to any purported Creator. And thus we have another spectrum, ranging (roughly) from Deism to Buddy Jesus. And this is quite apart from religion which will add its own take on these basic philosophical insights. God might be evil Allah of Islam who facilitates conquest, slavery, and bloodshed. Or God might be Jehovah who imparts moral laws to people so that they can life a life further toward Heaven on the spectrum. Or God only knows what Hindu teaches, but it seems to be a clusterfuck...which is not really out of place given the strange and indefinable circumstances we find ourselves in. Oh, well, why not…
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Post by kungfuzu on Mar 5, 2024 9:12:55 GMT -8
I suppose it is orthodox. But even if one is not orthodox it is the only doctrine which has a somewhat hopeful slant. Other possibilities range from disheartening to terrorizing. I am not claiming one or the other to be true, although one must hope that some sort of benevolence is guiding things, thus chaos is not the aim.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Mar 5, 2024 14:08:24 GMT -8
You need more training to be a demagogue.
Aren't there many stories in the Bible about people being afraid to look at God and/or God warning them about being in His presence? They'll be struck blind. Fall dead to the ground. They'll be deplatformed. That sort of thing?
Yeah...there is an inherent terror there quite apart from any possible malevolent intent. "Fear God" is central to the project. Dennis Prager often notes this. Although "fear of God" has been demonized by the Satanists (in all their guises) because, Gosh, why should we fear someone who is all-benevolent? But they conveniently miss the point that, although He may dispense Grace as He wishes, He is a God of judgment.
If not, then nothing really ultimately does mean anything. However, it's difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile a highly constructed and ordered world with meaningless chaos. The Satanists (for odd reasons) desire the latter not the former.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 9, 2024 11:06:03 GMT -8
I suppose like many brought up in a Protestant denomination, I read parts of the Pentateuch as a child and yute. Yet I never read all five books in any detail.
For whatever reason, I recently decided to read the Torah from beginning to end. Over the last few nights, I have done so before going to bed.
I must say that I did not get a good feeling from the experience. Perhaps the biggest question which came to mind was, "Why did God even bother?"
From the first man forward, the species is rotten. Eve and Adam can't resist disobeying God who they know personally. Cain can't but murder his brother out of envy. Abraham is a pimp for Sarah, Isaac is not much better. Jacob is a bum taking advantage of Esau's hunger and exhaustion to "buy" his birthright for a pot of stew. And Rebecca and Jacob are lying criminals for deceiving Isaac into giving Esau's blessing to Jacob.
Israel's sons bind their own brother and and throw him in a well. Most want to kill him out of jealousy, but he is found first and sold as a slave to Egypt. After some four hundred years in Egypt, during most of which they were slaves, God sends Moses to rescue them from Pharaoh and bondage. Not days removed from Egypt, the Israelites begin to bitch and complain. They continue to do this for the whole time they are in the desert, despite them actually hearing God speak to them, provide for them and warn them to mend their ways.
What a sorry bunch of scoundrels. What a stubborn group of ingrates. What a dim mob. Again, the question arises, "Why bother?"
Interestingly, there was not a Jew among them. They were the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Judaism comes later.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 9, 2024 16:40:32 GMT -8
Well, there is the story of Noah and the Ark. God drowned every last man, woman, and child because he found them irredeemable and wicked. Whether true or not, that is a deeply felt sentiment by many regarding humanity.
I think that's a pretty good and fair summing up. As Dennis Prager says, he believes the events in the Bible happened because so much of it is uncomplimentary. Who would make this stuff up about themselves, "the chosen people"?
Interesting point. All this, of course, leads naturally to the idea (if not also the reality) of some kind of larger battle between Good and evil. Maybe this is just a rationalization for the decrepit state of humanity. Or maybe it helps explain things, why things are so messed up.
We are not automatons. We have something called "spirit." That is, there is an immaterial driver in us all that makes us aware and culpable for our actions. We are able to choose between good and evil. We have philosophically, if not also literally, eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
We are, as is an orthodox Christian belief, co-creators in our universe with God. We can cooperate with his Will (as best we can know it) or we can go against it (something that is infused completely in Leftism and the Democrat Party).
Why doesn't God just smite all the evil-doers? Know one seems to know. There's all this talk of free will, but that has never satisfied me. I believe that this entire situation is more complex and strange than we can imagine from our perspective. But there are plenty of quality hints in the Bible here and there.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 10, 2024 13:33:53 GMT -8
No doubt about it. We cannot know exactly what is going on, but there are hints that the battle is old, and hasn't changed that much. As we have discussed, the West is returning to paganism. All this transgender/queer promotion is as old as the hills. Here are a couple of verses that show this to be the case.
No woman may wear an article of man's clothing, not may a man put on woman's dress; for those who do these things are abominable to the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 22:4
A curse on anyone who lies with an animal
Deuteronomy 27:21
If a man has intercourse with a man as a woman, both commit an abomination. They must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13
A man who has sexual intercourse with and animal must be put to death, and you are to kill the beast. If a woman approaches an animal to mate with it, you must kill both woman and beast.
Leviticus 20:15-16
That such laws had to be stated shows that there was lot of perversion some three thousand years ago. The Law of Moses made clear that such behavior was not allowed, and called for the strictest punishment to ensure that perversion was kept to a minimum. A healthy society could not afford to allow such things to take place, thus the harsh reprimand.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 10, 2024 14:53:28 GMT -8
I can understand a sort of perverse pleasure in them exhibiting the complete rotteness of the Israelites, and still being able to claim that they are God's "chosen people."
This leads me to wonder if God chose them at random? Did he choose them because they were the best of a bad bunch? Did he choose them because they were so rotten that he wanted to run and experiment?
Considering the way he had the Israelites massacre every living creature in the areas he gave to the them, I have to wonder how corrupt and evil these victims were. There is mention of some of them sacrificing their children to Moloch or Baal, so I can't bring myself to shed a lot of tears for them.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 10, 2024 19:30:14 GMT -8
You get the feeling that large parts of the Bible are for sincere, perhaps even advanced, seekers. And then there are things that God mixed in from the now lost "Word of God for Dummies" edition. As if men needed to be told not to wear women's clothing, and vice versa. Ditto. And don't pick your nose in public. Cover your mouth when you cough. Look both ways before crossing the street. Men have a penis. Women have a vagina.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 10, 2024 19:39:56 GMT -8
I think these statutes give us a pretty good idea how primitive and downright dim people are when all is said and done.
One of the statutes even tells the Israelite how to take a dump. As silly as that may sound, many people need such instruction. Just another confirmation of my point that humanity has the tendency for its wheels to spin off if some type of guidelines are not clearly stated and enforced. Not everyone is crazy, but it doesn't take everyone to go crazy for a society to be badly damaged by libertarians and other nuts.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 11, 2024 8:06:39 GMT -8
Given that we can't generally trust sources regarding history that is occurring right now, I think it's difficult to parse these ancient stories other than by using them as a Rorschach inkblot test. They might simply tell us what we want to see.
It's interesting as well (from what little I've read) that Islam doesn't seem to try to hide it's outright bloodthirsty and evil ways. What we can probably read into this is that what was good for the tribe (or faction) was all that mattered. This may have also been the dynamic regarding ancient Israelites.
We might conclude that the Israelites were better than the tribes they displaced. But who knows? "God" can be the justification for so many things, just as we see the nuts who use "saving the planet" to justify almost anything.
But in the Big Picture, at least from the commentary I've read from Prager about the Torah and such, the purpose of Judaism (even if many Jews today are too politicized to know this) is to universalize standards of conduct outside the tribe. Law is law. No more "what's good for the tribe is the only measure." And there is but one God, not a god for every Tom, Dick, and Harry tribe. And certainly not a mere "water" god or "sun" god, etc.
Well, what we have today may be one God, but in thousands of various boutique denominations and factions, some of which (the Pope, and large swaths of Catholicism) are more Communist than Christian.
So, as far am I'm concerned, start building your Ark. My outlook is that we are in the same situation as Christian religious groups throughout the ages. Many came to America to escape the corruption of Europe. Where do we go now to escape the corruption of America?
So, in some sense, like those early religious communities, we need to somehow wall ourselves off from the wicked world. Maybe the Amish will be the last man standing. But I think I better understand those communities. I mean, look at the Olympics. A man is beating up women and winning the gold medal for his efforts. They are swimming in the polluted Seine and calling shit Shinola. They are blaspheming Christianity while showing what heathen cowards they are by not only leaving Islam untouched but importing them into their country like rats aboard a sinking ship.
It's a sick culture and people, right and left, are normalizing the sickness. Fight it, sure. But at the same time, I think one has to be sure to wall oneself off from it. Did I watch one minute of the Olympics? Of course not. Only a fool would give their attention to that cultural pestilence.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Aug 11, 2024 8:13:37 GMT -8
You bet. And there was probably single-motherhood back then (if only because of men dying in wars). Without a father to transmit the hard wisdoms, children will tend to float. And there is always a rabble. For whatever reason, there are those who seem inclined to living degraded lives.
So you need to have clear standards and guidelines lest the hard-working, honest, god-fearing people become demoralized. And that's what the Left has successfully done in the West. You can't let the beastly, the perverts, the shirkers, and the just plain angry set the standards. But that is exactly what is happening now.
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Post by kungfuzu on Aug 11, 2024 9:13:54 GMT -8
Absolutely, but add to that such standards are needed to keep them from becoming decadent and degenerate. Human nature being what it is, there is a whole vista of various ills which are just waiting to attack people who are not constantly reminded to keep on the straight and narrow. If enough people are infected with these myriad of ills, the society can collapse. That's why the satanists are today attacking the West the way that they are.
While Christians probably generally think "The Ten Commandments" when musing over the Mosaic Law, the Pentateuch goes into much greater detail and specificity. The Law covers religious ritual, dietary conduct, hygiene (skin disease is given an inordinate amount of attention) as well as civil and criminal law both for Israelites and their conduct toward aliens. It is very detailed in some respects. The statutes are repeated a number of times in order to make sure that the people understand them.
While the LORD makes clear the many blessings he will shower upon the Israelites if they obey him and follow his ordinances, i.e. shows them the carrot, he spends more text, and is much more serious, when he imparts to them the many punishments he will visit upon them should they stray, i.e. shows them the stick. From my reading, the stick is stressed much more than the carrot. Yet the sinful dummies still wantonly disobeyed many many times, as one learns when reading Joshua and Judges. Wisdom is sadly lacking in the tribes, to say the least.
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