Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 27, 2020 12:07:10 GMT -8
I find honesty amongst Libertarians to be extremely rare. And I’m not cracking wise when I say that a large part of the problem is likely due to being addled by pot smoking.
Libertarians, like Jonah Goldberg, are like trying to nail Jell-o to the wall. You call them on the absurdity of one of their principles and they’ll just move the goal posts and tell you that’s not what they mean or think.
Best that I can gather, Libertarians are for: All drugs being legalized, legalization of prostitution, open borders, and never having to change one's underwear (figuratively or literally). That is, I view it as a philosophy that tries to rationalize the beast, not clean him up.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 27, 2020 12:10:23 GMT -8
That is all well and good. I would take it further and say that it is easier to destroy than to build and this applies to virtually everything in life.
So what follows from that? Perhaps one should think carefully and be cautious about tearing something down. Tearing something down is destroying the work of another/others, which should give everyone pause. Questions should be asked like, why should this be torn down? Is it something special that needs to be preserved? What will tearing it down effect? Will good come from simply tearing it down or do I need to replace it with something else and can I be sure that replacement will be better?
Chesterton warns us to find out why a wall was built before we consider to tear it down. Like a wall, our civilization has been built brick-by-brick and there is a reason it is "mainly" still in place. I call it the wisdom of the ages, i.e. cultural norms and laws which have been tried and tested over centuries.
Time moves on and things change, but we should be deliberate in our actions as some of the things we might do could be unchangeable. Perhaps a conservative's motto should be "First do no harm."
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 27, 2020 12:24:07 GMT -8
The idea of “progress” becomes a stimulant unto itself. It is commonly assumed that “new and improved” (or at least “new”) is better. Label it as “Progressive” or “forward-thinking” and who really wants to be regressive or backward-looking?
The ability to simply parse the language of scoundrels is all but lost in our culture. We don’t know how to say, “Well, they may have labeled such-and-such as better, but is it really?”
Groupthink pervades everything, especially the aspect of virtue-signaling wherein few have the guts to question those who would tell us that their ideas are better, less racist, more inclusive, etc.
And why are good things easily destroyed? Seriously. It’s a good question. But as you’ve intimated, it’s a completely useless question if one is not even willing to say what is good and what is bad — to get into the details. Talking in generalities is to say nothing and is markedly dishonest in most cases.
I think muddying the issue is the aspect of technological progress which is almost always better. Today’s computer is cheaper and faster than yesterday’s. And it does more things.
But perhaps social progress is impossible to unlink from technological progress. I was watching this episode of Downton Abbey. The daughter, Edith, was pestering her father to buy a radio. He was adamantly against it. When she would so much as hint at bringing up the subject he would cut her short and announce, “No!”
Finally, it was announced that King Edward VIII would be making a first-ever radio broadcast to his subjects. Suddenly the idea of a radio in the mind of Lord Grantham was not a passing fad but something that was now at least marginally legitimate.
Another amusing moment from this scene is when someone commented that “Doesn’t this take away the mystery and majesty of the King?” Someone else answered, “What’s wrong with that?” Maggie Smith’s crusty character then answered, “Nothing, so long you don’t wish to retain residence at Buckingham Palace.”
Brilliant. As you noted, time moves on. Things change. But not everything changes. People are having to twist themselves in enormous pretzel logic to try to get past the idea that there are men and there are women and that’s that.
There are all kinds of timeless principles such as this that are not countermanded simply because someone is wedded to the idea that all things that are new are better.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 27, 2020 12:33:39 GMT -8
Few libertarians will even admit that there is a beast. They have little contact with reality and do not understand the nature of life or man. To quote Hobbs, "During the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that conditions called war; and such a war, as if of every man, against every man." Do you think mankind might enter such conditions quickly if the libertarian philosophy were put into action?
"Life is nasty, brutish and short" at the best of times. A libertarian run polity would accentuate all three characteristics until some tyrant or tyrants finally got control of things by, oh my God! Force.
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Post by timothylane on Jan 27, 2020 12:43:19 GMT -8
It is the nature of revolutionaries to overturn society, rejecting all traditions. This includes integrity and civility as well as various political matters. This is ultimately an emotional rejection of the world as it is, so of course they don't worry about why any tradition is there and what they'll replace it with. Despite their support for totalitarian government, in many ways they have an anarchist mindset. Perhaps that's why they're so addicted to doublethink.
So some fool thinks conservatism is just the Founding Fathers and rejects social conservatism (even though most of those founders probably agreed with banning abortion and homosexuality). So does he think they'd consider Scat Francisco a good illustration of their principles? Or does his dislike of social conservatism (which the NR Catholics used to espouse) require him to support the perverted left?
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 27, 2020 13:34:28 GMT -8
Mr. Kung, I ran across this quote that I had never seen before:
When in doubt, side with Washington. But Jefferson was correct that at least the American people, at that time and place, were capable of self-government. He had a grand clue to the whole dynamic when he wrote:
We have men trying to compete as women in sporting events…and everyone and their brother (perhaps sister) treating this as normal. Thomas, do we yet qualify as “moral degradation”?
Churches and synagogues prosper when traditional morality is important. Libertarians and others prosper (at least as an ideology) when morality is more of a punch line than a thing done.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 27, 2020 13:39:32 GMT -8
“An emotional rejection of the world” is a grand idea. We would all be gods if we could. We would. Admit it. And that impulse finds its greatest home in Leftism. They are beyond mere mortals for they can not only imagine a perfect world, they can make it so.
And doesn’t that make them special.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 27, 2020 13:51:15 GMT -8
We might even agree or disagree with what the Founding Fathers most likely (or quite unambiguously) would approve or disprove of. The dishonesty factor is when anyone (including supposed conservatives) re-define conservatism in a completely modern (read: “liberal”) sense.
But it’s easier to change definitions to whatever the current Zeitgeist is than to defend against various revolutionaries. And that would define quite a few of the supposed conservatives at National Review, as well as 99% of the Republicans
It’s one thing to say “I now support homosexual marriage.” It’s quite another thing to say that it’s abiding by the spirit and intent of the Constitution.
But then it gets back to that old adage: How do you know when a politician is lying? When his lips are moving.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 27, 2020 14:35:03 GMT -8
Give me an Amen, brother!
I had never seen that quote from Jefferson. To be honest, I think old Thomas is being less than candid. To have undermined Washington the way Jefferson did there must have been some pretty fundamental disagreements.
Or perhaps there was another source. Historians have suggested that Jefferson looked at Washington as a father figure and was hurt/disappointed when Washington did not reciprocate that feeling in a demonstrative manner. This state of affairs was worsened when Washington seemed to side more with Hamilton than Jefferson, as time went on.
It is interesting to note that the only figure Washington appeared to have a fatherly feeling for was Lafayette. Of course, unlike Jefferson, Lafayette was young enough to have been Washington's son. Furthermore, Washington could only have loved the youth who came to fight for another country in the cause of freedom, and who contributed large funds to that fight.
I like Jefferson's insight to the possibilities of man governing himself, but I don't think an outside "tyrant" is necessary to bring about man's degradation. It (the tyrant) is already inherent in each individual man, thus the need for government.
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Post by timothylane on Jan 27, 2020 14:48:51 GMT -8
Jefferson and Washington obviously differed on many specific issues. The fact that Washington agreed most of the time with Hamilton's economic views made that inevitable. Perhaps Jefferson was referring to basic principles -- or perhaps he was just behaving like a typical politician.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 27, 2020 15:42:22 GMT -8
Isn’t their a carte blanche Kungian Rule concerning politicians?
Ahh, did you sense the subtle oder of The Age of Reason idealism? I know I did.
It’s such a wonderful conceit that man is perfect in his soul unless warped by external forces. Jefferson was clearly a man of the Left in that sense. Indeed, I agree with Dennis Prager who absolutely cringes when he hears people say “People are basically good.” No they are not. And conforming to a Kungian Rule that is sure to be written, people love to flatter themselves how good they are by indiscriminately complimenting others or showing sympathy in public torrents.
Sober men understand that, aside from the occasional saint (and even then), it is the nature of the social enterprise that men start out as Little Monsters and have to be formed into civilized human beings. Absent external formation and change, we will be uncouth and ignorant, at the least, and Big Monsters and barbarians at the worst.
There can be little doubt that any uptick in the Libertarian ideology coincides with the lack of fathers (or real men) in the home. Libertarianism is the perfect Little Monster philosophy.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 27, 2020 15:53:53 GMT -8
Yes, your comments about knowing when they are lying, i.e. their moving lips, would be encompassed in the rule.
I cannot recall reading about any saint who did not have to overcome "little-monsterism." Overcoming this state so completely is one of the reasons they became saintly. Maybe the fact that we are not all saints has to do with the fact that becoming a better person ain't so easy and is a constant task.
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Post by timothylane on Jan 27, 2020 19:39:21 GMT -8
Mark Steyn has a nice article on NR and Trump that would fit in well here. He explains why the repeated failures of the GOP leadership post-Reagan is what led to Trump, pointing out that when certain popular views are not allowed among "nice" politicians, the people will find not-so-nice politicians who express them. This is much the same point Scammon and Wattenberg made 50 years ago in The Real Majority (in that case, regarding crime): If you confront a moderate person with an immoderate situation, he may make an immoderate choice. The link is:
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 27, 2020 20:44:52 GMT -8
I like this from Steyn.
This is the exact argument we have been making since 2013 when ST was founded. We have taken it further by stating that movement conservatives have been making an obscene living out of sucking the government tit which they support while pretending they don't. I remember having an email discussion with one, now-departed, NRO writer. He was more of a libertarian type who claimed to be an economic conservative, and I explained how you cannot have economic conservatism over the long run without cultural conservatism. I don't think he bought my argument, but I stand by it and believe I am being proven correct.
The "movement" conservative fools probably believe the nonsense put out by NRO and its ilk. The sharp ones know very well they are pushing a lie and making money on it.
Never doubt that many, perhaps most, "Republican" politicians want to stay in office no matter who is in power. They are like the second and third stringers on a football team who are happy to have a letter jacket because that keeps them around the game. And the game is government money, influence and power. Heh, it's better to be down on the field than in the end-zone seats.
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Post by timothylane on Jan 27, 2020 21:44:37 GMT -8
I think Phyllis Schlafly may have been the originator of the point that economic conservatism requires social conservatism over the long haul. Of course, she was a supporter of both, which no doubt helped.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 28, 2020 8:30:05 GMT -8
I think those are good and wise comments, Mr. Kung.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 28, 2020 8:47:19 GMT -8
Probably much truth in that from Steyn. It’s refreshing to read no-nonsense writing, with a bit of grit, other than from here. Did Kevin Williamson really write an article with the headline Witless Ape Rides Escalator? Yes, yes he did. It doesn’t offend me that someone has a low opinion of Trump, for he’s not my cup of tea either. But where is the vitriol well deserved by the losers such as Jeb!, Romney, McCain, and the rest of the gutless, Quisling Republican establishment, including the lackeys in the so-called conservative press? Kevin, as Steyn notes, you helped create Trump. He got that right. And he was prescient in this remark that he made two decades ago: I haven’t listened to him in years, but (even for him, who tends to live there), I had no idea that Beck had gone off the deep end: And… I think we’ve been consistent amongst ourselves: He’s our bum — over-achieving in many areas, a complete demagogue in others — but far, far better than Hillary (or Jeb! or Marco or etc.). Indeed, some good thoughts by Steyn that do fit the current topic.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 28, 2020 9:00:48 GMT -8
Although I admit I don’t go in for “formula talking” much anymore, I’ll take it from you because I know you’re willing to give specifics that these ideas lead to. They don’t remain in the rarified air of theory.
What people want is to have their cake and eat it too. Libertarians, for instance, want legalized drugs, prostitution, and about every libertine policy or idea you can think of, while saying they don’t want anyone to harm anyone else or to “steal their stuff.” I can guarantee you, though, that people burned out on drugs and made ignoble by an ignoble culture are much more likely to do you harm and steal your stuff.
And even if this isn’t done on a personal level, a culture of no-restraint (where personal responsibility is transferred to the state and the cost of social ills are socialized) will tend to create a larger, more intrusive government who will (lawfully) “steal your stuff.” And, if history is any guide, an all-powerful state is also a threat to harm you as well.
Women are finding that throwing in with feminism/Leftism may be giving them economic advantages but it isn’t making them any happier or safer. Without civilized men, the women will be unsafe and unsatisfied. Look at the rape culture in England from the Muslims. And although I’m dubious about the reality of it, the supposed Progressive centers of utopian modern thought (college campuses) are said to foment a rape culture as well.
What very few seem to want to swallow are the essential truths of: You can’t have it all. And the more essential truth yet is: The quality of life is essentially based on what we forbid, not what we permit.
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Post by timothylane on Jan 28, 2020 9:12:07 GMT -8
A good example of how the elites engender Trump votes came over the weekend when a panel of leftist newsliars (including Don the Lemon) was viciously mocking Trump voters as stupid and ignorant. They particularly felt that neither Trump nor his voters could locate Ukraine on a map. Of course, how many voter of any sort could do so is an interesting question.
As I noted in response to one of the articles on the subject, I was aware of the Ukraine (the article was added at the time) early enough to recognize a reference to it in the Jimmy Cagney comedy One, Two, Three, which we saw in the theaters before I was technically a teen. For that matter, I recall noticing as a grade school a map oddity -- the Orinoco and Amazon systems are linked. I wondered about that at the time, but it's true (and unique -- there's no other such link between two otherwise separate major river systems). I wonder if Don the Lemon and his crew ever noticed that.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 28, 2020 10:04:50 GMT -8
As I recall, this took place over 10 years back. The writer had made some snarky comments about social conservatives and I wrote his a few pointed lines demonstrating the err of his ways. I can't recall everything about the exchange, but I believe I also told that insulting the largest leg of the three-legged conservative stool, (social-fiscal-defense conservatives) was not a way to win.
I gave up on NRO not long afterward. This decision had nothing to do with Trump, rather with the clear indications that NRO had become captive to the RINO-Globalist wing of the Republican party and were Marxists at heart, i.e. they had a materialist view of the world. Of course, they liked to think of themselves as "polite", but they were still materialists.
Once Buckley sold NR to a financier, it started down the road to perdition. It completed its journey shortly after he died.
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