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Post by artraveler on Jul 9, 2019 7:01:34 GMT -8
PFC Carl Dearborn of the 4th Marine Division
Saipan wa declared secure on 9 July 1944
I Died For You Today.
I died for you today on a far off Pacific Island.
If you are concerned, to say the least, I'll tell you who I am...
I'm the soldier and the sailor - I'm the airman and Marine...
I'm the life blood of your nation - you sent me to this scene...
I'm the one who loads the Amtracks...I'm the pilot, just as well...
I'm the dedicated corpsman saving leathernecks who fell...
I'm the trooper of the airborne, I'm the Seabee with a trade...
I'm the wiry American medic dodging steel to give first aid...
I'm the tail gunner in the airplane, I'm the crew chief and the crew...
I'm the cannoneer and mortar man in the field defending you...
I'm the man of different races clinging to a rumbling tank...
I'm Catholic, Jew and Protestant, and I serve in every rank...
Call me Dominic, Smith or Kelly or pronounce my foreign name...
And regardless of my color - When I'm hurt, I bleed the same...
I'm Indian and I'm Mexican. I'm Polish, Dutch, Italian and Greek...
I'm every inch American and your freedom's what I seek...
I'm the southern boy from Florida, I'm the northern lad from Maine...
I've toiled in Georgia's orchards, and I've cut Montana's grain...
I came from every walk of life - from mountains to the slums...
I've lived, by God, through dust and drought, and I've prayed aloud for rain.
I've known hardship and depression; still I've watched our country grow...
But when Uncle Sam came calling I was proud that I could go...
I've watched demonstrations and the people who protest...
And I said "Thank God for freedom!" - my country's still the best...
So take your banners and your slogans. Raise your placards to the sky...
I'll defend your right to do it... Though in doing it. I'll die...
I'm your fathers - sons - and brothers...I'm the arm of Uncle Sam...
And I died for you today, my friend...On an Island called Saipan...
Jews and Marines never forget
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 9, 2019 9:29:18 GMT -8
My old doctor was with the Navy at Saipan. When I asked him about it all he would say that it was a filthy place. Filthy place.
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Post by timothylane on Jul 9, 2019 9:46:05 GMT -8
For many, the worst part may have been witnessing the incident known as the Suicide Cliffs of Japan, when Japanese women -- in a panic over what they were told the Americans would do to them -- jumped off the cliffs with their children. (Some didn't do so voluntarily, which of course was murder, not suicide. Nothing could be done with the perps, of course, because they committed suicide themselves. But many did commit suicide, which is something people forget about when considering the possible invasion of Japan.)
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 9, 2019 10:04:10 GMT -8
When I lived in Japan, the subject of the atomic bombs would come up. A couple of times when I was pushed on the subject, I told some people that the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the best thing that happened to Japan. I then explained my statement by saying, "Can you imagine two million soldiers and blood-thirty marines who had seen the horrors of Okinawa and Iwo Jima attacking Japan from the South and an equal number of blood-thirty Soviet Reds invading from the North? The remainder of the Japanese Army would be wiped out very quickly, and then the populace would come out to fight the Allies with pitch forks and rakes. These would be answered with machine guns. I think in the best case scenario, a minimum of 5 million Japanese would have been slaughtered."
After I finished I might hear an "Ah so, desu ka?"
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Post by artraveler on Jul 9, 2019 11:09:29 GMT -8
My father was part of the units training for the invasion during the summer of 45. Estimates were that the US would suffer 1,000,000 casualties in subduing Japan and the Japanese would lose an entire generation before peace was dictated from the steps of imperial palace. At the time of surrender the Japanese still could have mustered 60 divisions and the war might not have ended until 1950.
In Europe the strategy of the British was keep the Russians out, the Germans down, and the Americans in. The bomb accomplished that for Japan. Today Japanese and American navies jointly patrol the Sea of Japan and Japanese carriers (technically helicopter carriers) are being equipped with F-35s to counter China.
On Saipan it was Spruance v. Nugumo and the BBs that Nugumo sunk at Pearl, California, and Nevada got there vengeance.
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Post by timothylane on Jul 9, 2019 12:33:47 GMT -8
Admiral Nagumo was indeed at Saipan, but on shore. I'm not sure what his role was. Admiral Ozawa led the main fleet, as he would again at Leyte Gulf (by which time the carriers were useless, so the main fleet was the battleship force under Admiral Kurita).
The real revenge the Pearl Harbor survivors received came at Surigao Strait, when they were involved in sinking the Japanese battleships Fuso and Yamashiro. The modern battleships were with Halsey, who formed them into TF 34 but failed to send them to watch San Bernardino Strait, with consequences that were almost catastrophic. (Nimitz didn't really tell Halsey "the world wonders" when asking where TF 34 was. That was a deciphering error, including the end padding along with the message.)
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Post by artraveler on Jul 9, 2019 15:00:03 GMT -8
Tim,
Nagumo was overall commander of all the naval forces in the Saipan area from his bunker on Saipan.Ozawa was the field commander but not in overall command. Nagumo committed suppuku when the battle was lost along with the commanding general of the army. The great Marianas turkey shoot can be laid at Nagumo's feet. It was his idea to confront the Americans with the entire remaining Japanese naval air. Over 400 Japanese planes shot down and even more critical, pilots permanently lost, Thus, making the battle of Surigao Strait an ultimate air supremacy victory. It was not necessary to cross the T at Surigao although for the BB boys I'm sure it must have felt good.
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Post by timothylane on Jul 9, 2019 16:29:18 GMT -8
As I recall, the fall of Saipan led to the fall of the Tojo government, so I suspect the Japanese would still have attacked anyway. Aside from (mostly) inferior pilots and planes, they also attacked in separated waves. I have no idea who was responsible for the poor tactics. This may simply have been standard Japanese naval tactics, since they behaved similarly at Pearl Harbor and Midway.
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Post by timothylane on Jul 9, 2019 16:59:21 GMT -8
It's little known, but the Japanese loss rates on kamikaze attacks wasn't 100%. Each handful of kamikazes would be accompanied by an observation plane, which usually got back. So their total loss rate for them was probably less than their loss rate in conventional attacks at the Philippine Sea (aka the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot), much less at Leyte Gulf.
The Battle off Samar was a much better illustration of air supremacy than the night action at Surigao Strait. Japanese losses exceeded American losses even before Halsey sent some planes to help. The jeep carriers and destroyer escorts had no torpedoes and only light guns, but the carrier planes had bombs and maybe even torpedoes, and sank (I think) a couple of heavy cruisers. Kurita's battleships accomplished little -- their armor-piercing shells from heavy guns (14 to 18 inches) went right through the American ships. Of course, Musashi had already been sunk by massed bomber attacks in the Sibuyan Sea.
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Post by timothylane on Jul 9, 2019 17:58:03 GMT -8
The topic of this thread is war poets, so I thought I would mention Martin Gilbert's The First World War, a history of the war that includes a lot of poetry. Naturally this includes John McCrae's "In Flanders Fields" as well as another I once added to the Poetry section at ST.
And while I'm at it, I might as well do McCrae's poem here. This is from memory so I may have some minor errors.
In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses row on row That mark our place; and in the sky, The larks, still bravely singing, fly, Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe. To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die, We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 10, 2020 7:21:57 GMT -8
They say that Black Lives Matter
And certainly they do
But are they being honest?
Perhaps the riots are a clue
They talk of “social justice”
While burning buildings down
And making all the whites
Kneel before them on the ground
Racism is indeed a problem
Especially those who scorn
America just for being
And those of white skin born
There’s no justice in a mob
There’s no peace in their big lies
And I’m no more guilty of murder
Than I am of being white
So take your mob and leave
You don’t belong in this place
In America, the land I love
Which gives no privilege to any race
Your “Progressive” faith is tiring
It’s destructive through and through
If you want anarchy as your leader
Go to hell, or to a blue state too
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jun 10, 2020 8:13:05 GMT -8
Very nice. I think you might be able to refine it a bit and then spread it around the country.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jun 10, 2020 9:00:45 GMT -8
Feel free to clean and for anyone to repost on Facebook or whatever.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 7, 2022 12:46:39 GMT -8
"We must always tell what we see. Above all, and this is more difficult, we must always see what we see." Charles Peguy |
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 17, 2022 9:48:31 GMT -8
A couple of good quotes from that Wiki page:
"Tyranny is always better organised than freedom"
"It is impossible to write ancient history because we do not have enough sources, and impossible to write modern history because we have too many".
And I think many of us can relate to this one, even if one does not have the self-indulgent attitude of a the-world-revolves-around-me Snowflake:
"There will be things that I do that no one will be left to understand."
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