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Post by kungfuzu on Jan 13, 2020 9:31:32 GMT -8
That is certainly a possibility. Men have assumed, invented and reasoned all sorts of religious doctrines and tenets that are nowhere to be found in the Bible. I find much of "hard-core" religion is built around these assumptions, inventions and reasons. This applies to both the Jewish and Christian versions of the truth.
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Brad Nelson
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 9:49:01 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 13, 2020 9:49:01 GMT -8
I still mean to watch this movie. But thank you, Artler, for staring an interesting subject. I just wanted to say that.
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Brad Nelson
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 10:03:46 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 13, 2020 10:03:46 GMT -8
I’m definitely in agreement with that. My older brother told me the other day that the church his wife goes to believes that dinosaurs coexisted with human beings early on and were not carnivorous. They apparently became that way only because of The Fall, or something like that.
I don’t have the details. And I can even sympathize. Who wants a story that reads “God created a system whereby life would feed on death, misery, and suffering, in order for life to flourish”? That doesn’t sound very palatable. It’s much nicer to believe that the lion always laid down with the lamb.
And in many animated movies, the animals are all friends. That sort of leaves you wondering what the wolves eat. And in many Christian or Catholic stories, all suffering (except for the “natural” suffering of tidal waves, earthquakes, and such) is considered to have sin at the root.
And that’s a good story, even a logical one, *if* creation is inherently a paradise that we have subsequently screwed up. But I don’t hold to that doctrine because I don’t believe paradise, under the terms we live, is possible. That is, I think the very foundation of the universe is set so that pain and suffering are not aberrations but inherent to the way things work.
That needn’t lead to a sense of fatalism or despair. It usually does which is why we get all these other stories. But perhaps in no stronger way do we ever experience God than in the role of Job — being a good man or woman despite the hardships. It’s a strange Bible story, I will relent. And I don’t think it’s literally true. But it’s surely metaphorically true.
There is every excuse to be a rat bastard in this life. The hard argument, instead, is why one should not be. And (hint) reducing your carbon footprint or using the right pronoun has nothing to do with that. The miraculous, even holy, man or woman is the good man or woman who is so and not because life has always been easy and soft. But because they have true (not virtue-signaling) sympathy for others — and (most importantly) act accordingly.
This is the real meaning of “turning the other cheek.” It has nothing to do with being “non-judgmental.” It simply means not living according to nature but according to God, for if we lived by the rules of nature, we’d all be Nazis. Why nature should exist in the form it does is a profoundly interesting question. But our reaction to this reality determines whether we walk with the angels or the devils.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 10:55:26 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jan 13, 2020 10:55:26 GMT -8
That's interesting, that coverage of the Kelly-Hopkinsville incident (which I heard about a decade or so later, one benefit of coming from a Kentucky family on both sides and living there at the time, albeit in Edmonson rather than Christian county). From what I read occasionally on flying saucers at the time, the silvery color was probably more standard, though this may have been clothing. One way or another, I suspect it was thought of as a natural color for metallic creatures. I wonder if Rossum's Universal Robots, whence the term comes (from the Czech robota), were silvery.
I would disagree that there's no such thing as science. Science is a method for studying the natural world to learn how it works. In essence, science is the scientific method. Of course, many people who call themselves scientists seem to have forgotten the scientific method and are now more like priests, but that's another matter.
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Brad Nelson
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 12:23:57 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 13, 2020 12:23:57 GMT -8
First off, there is not one, or even a dozen, methods for studying and codifying the natural world.
But my gripe isn’t that there isn’t, in very general terms, a “scientific method.” It’s that “science,” as an appellation, has been turned into a sort of disembodied committee of know-it-all experts against which there is no higher appeal. It has become a word steeped in a sort of idol worship, a “worldview” that does not denote a method but a set of beliefs that have nothing to do with any method, per se.
When some “scientist” photographs a bird in the jungle and announces that it is now “known to science,” that is one big juicy ball of arrogance on display there — as if when a native (or anyone else) viewing or photographing a bird, the bird somehow remained invisible.
Basically “science” can, and does, entail all the pitfalls of a sclerotic and arrogant hierarchy.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 14:10:05 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Jan 13, 2020 14:10:05 GMT -8
We are children playing in G-d's toolbox. We have determined a small part of what and how those tools are used. Like an ant examining a skillsaw. We might know its a saw, but we have no idea of how to plug it in. The same is true for evolution, we know that some species have evolved, others haven't like sharks, but we don't know the how, and most importantly we don't know the why.
The face of G-d is in the why and we are a long way from that. We only have stories, and perferial information to seek out the why. Some of the questions are only answered in philosophy. The extinentialist philosopher Martin Buber ask some of those questions in, I and Thou. Franz Rosenzweig asks some of the same in a different manner in, The Star of Redemption.
So, if there are little green men, when they come to earth will they be Christian, Jewish, Hindi Buddhist, or even Shinto?I assume no civilization capable of space travel would ever chose to be Moslem.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 15:12:37 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jan 13, 2020 15:12:37 GMT -8
I can only hope when the answer comes, that it will be something like this.
I think I like the King James translation for verse 12 even better.
Modern readers should remember that glass was not clear and transparent as today's product is. Most mirrors were polished metal. What one saw through the one or in the other was not at all clear or without distortion.
As to philosophy, it has been highly overrated throughout history. It makes for a, sometimes, interesting mental exercise, but not one to answer why we are here and our place in the universe.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 21:20:44 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 13, 2020 21:20:44 GMT -8
I just renamed the religious section with that in mind. Minus the dash. Too Jewish. I think too often we use this universe like a Playskool toy. It’s appropriate to a child but then we do need to move up to the skillsaw…or the equivalent of that. Kudos to those who can make things through carpentry and woodcrafting. I am truly both jealous and in awe at the same time. And I’m not even talking about Jesus being a carpenter. We are, in theory, to do things for the glory of God, not ourselves. Um….Facebook. Hello! I mean, if you’re there you’re most likely trying to glorify yourself. Just my opinion, of course. This is just a miniature, but I used to have a Fisher-Price “popcorn popper” type of pull toy. I loved it. One of the things that science has ruined is our ability to grapple with the fuzzy questions. If you try doing so within 20,000 leagues of an atheist they will freak out and castigate you for being superstitious and childishly naive. I’ll risk it. We obviously cannot look directly on the face of God. God is the ultimate game of Black Box. That sounds a lot like an Old Testament prophet. Paul was a Jew so there you go. People with the mind to do so, and the honesty to convey their observation, will sometimes note the miracle of mathematics. Other than monks or nuns who spend a lifetime in prayer and truly have some mystical experiences, perhaps those with the mind to grasp this Deep Order can get a sense of peeking through that dark glass. I believe that when we are creative, we are mirroring what is behind that glass. Often we mirror mostly our own ego and that can be very destructive. But I believe many people, consciously or unconsciously, are partaking in, and inspired by, creation (and the Creator) through their creative efforts.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 21:23:58 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 13, 2020 21:23:58 GMT -8
I see that Mr. Kung and I were thinking along the same lines. Great minds, etc.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 21:39:14 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 13, 2020 21:39:14 GMT -8
I think it’s enormously interesting and worthwhile, Mr. Kung, to grapple in that space that is a little past informed speculation but that does not cross entirely over into mental masturbatory intellectualism. Perhaps I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it (mostly likely read it).
Please stifle the laughter at my expense. But I used to be enormously opaque when trying to write on complicated or esoteric topics. I have made a conscious effort to be clear and yet not spoil the art of it by not delving into those dark and hard-to-describe corners. I’ve read some of my really old stuff (maybe come very old email to someone) and what I’m trying to say seems indecipherable. People tend to babble on when they don’t know much. But, for me, I think it’s an attempt to find that light at the end of the tunnel. But I shovel a lot of coal (and other stuff) trying to get there.
I can with all humility say that is is extremely rare to come across a book on philosophy that doesn’t make my eyes glaze over. Philosophical treatises tend to be completely disembodied from the subject. And that subject is life and this universe. Most such books simply don’t use the most obvious things: examples. Instead, they are extended word bubbles that seemingly satisfy only the author’s sense of self-importance.
No wonder’s Aesop’s Fables are still well read.
This is why and where the arts (particular various kinds of storytelling) can be so enlightening and powerful. They can portray ideas in a way that means something. That is what is so sad about 95% of today’s storytelling (or philosophical treatises). It’s the de rigueur in conservative circles to castigate pornography. But at least pornography is about a subject that is interesting and exiting. The same can’t be said for, say, the plethora of stupid Marvel comic book movies, the dumb Star Wars movies from Disney, or all the politically correct crap. You can’t tell a story if you don’t connect with your own soul. Write that down as a Kungian rule.
This is the reason, I’m sure, that so much philosophy and storytelling is so bland. Most people are outputting sawdust or simply the phonographic equivalent of overindulgent emotional drama. To talk about something interesting, important, or alive is becoming a lost art. Lucky we have old books, old movies, etc., to sort through forever. We won’t run out of the good stuff. It’s just too bad that few people are making the good stuff. Their souls have become rotted from lack of use.
A society raised on feminism, stupid Marvel comic book movies, victimhood, and just plain bad manners has no way to talk about The Ultimate Subjects, if only because that particular subject isn’t about me me me.
But I think it’s fun to try. We would be walking blind and dumb on this earth if we did not.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 21:51:23 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jan 13, 2020 21:51:23 GMT -8
I believe Napoleon said something like, "History is the best teacher of philosophy." Implicit in that statement is that philosophers and philosophy teachers are generally not very good and enlightening people. Human experience is a better source to learn from.
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Clara
Jan 13, 2020 22:02:00 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jan 13, 2020 22:02:00 GMT -8
Well, I've read a lot by Ayn Rand, who considered herself a philosopher. For that matter, I read a mystery series set in early 19th century Prussia featuring a magistrate who was something of a protege of Immanuel Kant (who also appears in them).
But none of those actually involved reading philosophy as a subject. There is D. Q. McInerney's Being Logical: A Guide to Good Thinking, which I reviewed early on in ST. And for that matter, lots and lots of logic puzzles, including whole books of them by Raymond Smullyan. But those also aren't what people most likely think of when they consider philosophy as a subject.
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 9:29:08 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 9:29:08 GMT -8
I watched this short documentary on CuriosityStream about the Cassini-Hoygens mission to Saturn (circa 2004). It mentioned the interesting phenomenon of its moon, Enceladus, which was found to spew geysers of gasses hundreds of miles into space. The geysers were characterized as existing of “the building blocks of life.” This Wiki article notes that these gasses are made up of “water vapor, molecular hydrogen, other volatiles, and solid material, including sodium chloride crystals and ice particles.” That which doesn’t fall back to the planet apparently feeds Saturn’s E ring. There’s no talk of the “building blocks” on the Wiki site. But let’s let that pass for now. The documentary’s claim is reminiscent of the Miller-Urey experiment which shot some electricity into gas in a controlled environment and produced “the building blocks of life.” It matters not to the enthusiasts that the product of these experiments would have instantly degraded in what we know about the earth’s early atmosphere. These are stories that scientific people tell themselves while castigating the religious for believing in fairy tales. Granted, if you’ve seen some of the truly remarkable Lego creations, you’d be right to say that the Lego brick (although they come in hundreds of prefabricated block) is the building block of Lego creations. So if, say, they found that Saturn’s largest moon, Titan, spewed Lego bricks out of one of its volcanoes, you would expect that Lego castles, Lego animals, and and Lego Taj Mahals would simply be a matter of looking at enough planets to find some lying around. But what’s wrong with this story? The main problem is that in both cases it’s information (intelligent design, if you will) that is the real missing factor. Information is the basic building block of either these Lego designs or life. We know this without doubt regarding life because of the information content of DNA. In the case of Lego bricks (because they come pre-manufactured in some very specific shapes, such as working wheels), there is already tons of information embedded in the bricks. You could still make an elaborate Taj Mahal out of simple rectangular bricks (if small enough for fine-grained detail). But the designs go quicker with the prefabbed features such as doors, windows, platforms, etc. In the case of life, its starts with even less. Even if you were to grant the wishful thinking of so-called scientists and stated that amino acids (which do exist naturally in the environment and even in space) are the “building blocks of life,” that is still an extremely primitive brick compared to even the simplest Lego brick that is intricately designed to fit together. Perhaps the same is true of physics and amino acids. They are designed to fit together to provide the basic “Lego brick” to construct life. But it still can do so only via the input of the information encoded in DNA, which works much like the instruction sheet in the Lego sets you can buy which have prefabricated shapes for building, for instance, the Millennium Falcon. And it’s not that it’s inconceivable that life somehow starts from nothing and slowly and incrementally gets more complex. We can certainly conceive of it. We just can’t show how it can be done. We can’t even in principle see how it could ever be done. And yet we are inundated with this “building blocks of life” propaganda which has most believing that Lego Taj Mahals will be found on the surface of some distant planet or moon if we just look at enough of them. And we might indeed find some. The universe is a large and strange place, so who knows? And we’re not likely to find them on planets such as Mercury which is too hot (or cold) and barren to facilitate complex structures (biological or Lego) even if you pre-manufactured them and set them down on the planet. So it’s not illogical to look specifically at earth-like planets for signs of life for you’re surely not going to find it on Mercury. But if we were to move Mercury out to a more suitable orbit, perhaps seeding it with all the chemicals and atmosphere (see: Total Recall), we could then just wait around and suppose that because it now had “the building blocks of life” that some day, even if it took hundreds of millions of years, there would be something a thousand times more complex than the Lego Taj Mahal that would self-generate. The argument, of course, is that time heals all wounds. Given enough time, small incremental changes will take you from the building blocks to the human brain. We can certainly imagined that this happened. We just can’t show that it happened. The burden of proof is on “the building blocks of life” people. They must find a method (and their just-so creation stories are not a method) whereby Lego bricks can all by themselves increment themselves into these complex creations we see people making. There’s a whole lot more to this than the above. But we’re being fed a dishonest paradigm by people who either don’t think or are afraid of thinking. But any honest discussion of exoplanets would note that it’s going to take a lot more than bricks to make the Great Wall of China. This problem is fundamentally entwined with information, not matter, although matter (and certain favorable environmental conditions) is an obvious prerequisite for the type of life we know about.
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 9:51:38 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 9:51:38 GMT -8
Kungian rules of life tend to be short even when they note that life is complex. That’s because, in general, the basic truths aren’t complicated. Speaking of Lego bricks, the basic bricks are not particularly complicated.
But then (using the basic rules) these bricks can combine in very complex, even unexpected, ways.
On the other hand, there is man and there is woman. And that’s it biologically besides some genetic deformities. What that means and were we go from there is open to an enormous number of stories, viewpoints, and experiences. But that basic fact remains. There are men and there are women. That’s it.
Therefore convolution is almost always going to be the tool of those trying to talk themselves around the basic truths. We can argue all day whether men or better or women are better, or which tasks each are better at, etc. But honest people are not going to dispute the basic fact that there are men and there are women.
Life experiences (what happens) can be, and often is, enormously complex and contingent. But as soon as The Great Philosophers try to mimic that in their writing, they begin building little but castles in the clouds. Some are just searching. Some are deluded. Many more are just so full of their own sense of wisdom they can’t see their own baloney.
But it is a very large scientific and social conceit today that things must be complicated and elaborate or they can’t be true. Only knuckle-dragging conservatives believe in the simple truths, including that there are men and there are women and that’s that.
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 10:06:36 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jan 14, 2020 10:06:36 GMT -8
The Miller-Urey experiment was a good beginning, but it had two key flaws. One is that we now think the atmospheric conditions were different from those they assumed, which means that the experiment would have to be successfully repeated under the different conditions to mean anything. The second flaw is that creating a few basic organic chemicals doesn't mean creating proteins and other complex organic chemicals. And then you need some nucleic acids in order to have anything that can remotely be called life.
Indeed, even that is still early. A virus consists of DNA or RNA in a protein sheath -- and it's a debatable question whether it's really alive. Even if we repeat Miller-Urey for the conditions we now believe were present, and then take it to the next step, we don't quite have viruses yet. And from there to bacteria is a very long way. And then from bacteria (and equally primitive blue-green algae) to complex unicellular life is another long step. And we still wouldn't have kelp or sponges or slime molds.
Of course, the Earth had billions of years to develop those. How, in a few years, can we somehow imitate that? Because until we can do it, we don't know that it can be done no matter how boldly our scientists (or pseudo-scientists) speak.
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 10:21:33 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Jan 14, 2020 10:21:33 GMT -8
I just renamed the religious section with that in mind. Minus the dash. Too Jewish.
Isn't that what they said about Christ?
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 11:08:11 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 11:08:11 GMT -8
I think it’s totally reasonable and “scientific” to state the principle that only “natural” causes should be taken into consideration when examining any element of the universe. I get that. It just seems inadequate to explain life. In fact, given what see in life (the database of DNA, the nanobots, the micro-machinery), it needn’t have anything to do with religious zealotry to suppose that there is more going on here than can be explained by the simple, algorithmic “natural” laws of the universe as we know them.
Because the religious-like zealotry of “science” is so thick in this regard, most just can’t bring themselves to be honest. Or most simply know that “scientific correctness” has the power to ruin careers as surely as the Gestapo who orchestrate political correctness. And I laugh in their faces at this because these same bullies are the ones who never let us forget how the Church bullied Galileo (and that story is quite a bit different and more complex than the popular perception).
Although we can, and should, castigate blow-hard philosophers for dealing in obfuscation and building their mind-castles in the air, I think there is a place for good philosophy. It’s just that it is in very short supply at the moment. Baloney and misinformation predominate.
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 11:09:47 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 11:09:47 GMT -8
You score points for the succinct Socratic method. So it shall be written. So it shall be done.
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 11:13:43 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 11:13:43 GMT -8
A logical and real (we see it everywhere we find life) threshold is the cell wall. And the cell wall is an enormously complex thing. Any vague ideas (and I certainly have nothing against interesting speculation) has to deal with the almost certain fact that any kind of self-replicating RNA is pie-in-the-sky. It wouldn’t last a microsecond outside the protection of a cell wall that is actively regulating the cell environment (salinity, etc.) as well as physically protecting that RNA (or cell contents) from destruction from without.
But that cell wall also has to let things in. And not just anything. It has to be enormously intelligent. Some popular speculations talk about RNA strands perhaps co-opting natural bubbles of whatever substance is naturally occurring. But that is simply a just-so story. Let's see it, even if only in a realistic simulation.
If honest computer simulations can never recreate a scenario for the self-assembly of life then that concept is doomed. And it seems to me we have some pretty powerful computers now. But all we hear are crickets chirping.
Even more telling to me is that it is abundantly clear that earth has an extremely hospitable environment for life. We ought to see bits of it generating itself everywhere if the self-generation model is true. There should be various stages of self-generated life all over the place. There ought to be little RNA molecules inside primordial bubbles just barely scraping along, but scraping along just the same.
But we don't. We see only finished products that, if we are honest, seem to be pre-programmed with the ability to change into other finished products
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Clara
Jan 14, 2020 12:53:38 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Jan 14, 2020 12:53:38 GMT -8
If honest computer simulations can never recreate a scenario for the self-assembly of life then that concept is doomed. And it seems to me we have some pretty powerful computers now. But all we hear are crickets chirping. Passing the Turing test is becoming much more common and the answers to complex questions are becoming more accurate. I doubt we have passed a Turning point in A.I. but I do think it is getting closer. RAH in, Time Enough for Love, speculated that true computer intelligence only happens when the computer is loved by the user, love in the agape form, get your mind out of the gutter.
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