Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Clara
Jan 14, 2020 14:33:23 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 14:33:23 GMT -8
I was watching this documentary today on the history of the internet. It mentioned a company called Invisible Girlfriend. I’d never heard of it. The short story is that you sign up, answer a bunch of question regarding your preference for a girl, and then you partake of a fake girlfriend. Apparently there is a real person on the other end of the line pretending to be your girlfriend. She (or possibly he) is typing a lot of sweet nothings into a chat box. They apparently stop short of sexting…so they say. But what really would be the point then? This documentary was just a couple years old but I’m pretty sure there would not be a need to hire a real life person to text sweet nothings. I believe they have sophisticated programs that can do that now. And whether or not they pass the Turing test is irrelevant. I doubt that most people on Facebook could pass that intelligence test. So what is my point? I’m not sure. One chick interviewed in this same documentary claimed that empathy has decreased by 40% over the last decade, most of that coming in the last few years. I don’t know how they measure that. The documentary also mentioned the legions of worker bees at all the big internet “social media” companies whose job is to do nothing but scan their service for inappropriate content and delete it. And I think we’re talking not just about pro-Trump comments. Apparently there is a constant stream of very wicked stuff posted…along with some rather harsh feeling-hurter kinds of comments that Big Brother Facebook and Google must protect us from. Apparently the job is so overwhelming, job longevity is measured in a few short months. One of the workers said keeping any kind of positive view of human nature is very difficult. So that is the demos out there. The question is (intelligently posed in this documentary) whether the internet is at fault or it is simply age-old human nature expressing itself in a new medium. The consensus seems to be both. Human nature’s faults are amplified by the internet. They took a look at this one guy who makes a living playing video games on YouTube. Somehow people pay (or donate) money (or click in the banners) to watch him. He said that he’s had as many as 57,000 people watching him live while be played a game on his phone. The overthrow of humanity by Skynet seems inevitable. And could you really blame those future Turing-beating A.I. machines? Fifty-seven thousand watching a guy playing a game on his phone? There is a real possibility that the reason SETI isn’t picking up any signals is because word’s out. Put up your screens. Don’t let the earthlings find you.
|
|
|
Clara
Jan 14, 2020 16:27:12 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jan 14, 2020 16:27:12 GMT -8
I suppose Invisible Girlfriend is just an improved version of programs such as Eliza, a psychoanalytic program around 50 years ago. (A friend once had a session with it. It got especially interesting when he found out he didn't know how to sign out from it.)
Of course, love (or sex) between human and computer or robot has been done fictionally. Dean Koontz's early novel Demon Seed involved something of the sort, but I never got around to reading the novel (though I had a copy) or seeing the movie.
Demon Seed is not be confused with James Schmitz's The Demon Breed, a Campbellesque space adventure in which a woman with a pair of mutant otters defeats an alien invasion (with a little help from her mentor, taken prisoner when the aliens appeared). Superb book.
|
|
|
Clara
Jan 14, 2020 16:33:21 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Jan 14, 2020 16:33:21 GMT -8
There is a real possibility that the reason SETI isn’t picking up any signals is because word’s out. Put up your screens. Don’t let the earthlings find you. Brad, I think you have IT. What self-respecting alien, hostile or not would want to take a chance on humanity? Better to just keep silent and wait for them to grow up in a few thousand years. I can see the space equlivant of police tape around our solar system. DANGER, KEEP OUT, ENTER AT OWN RISK, CONTATION POSSIBLE, IF YOU ENTER YOU CANNOT LEAVE. ISOLATION SUITS REQUIRED! FIND ANOTHER GALAXY.
|
|
|
Clara
Jan 14, 2020 16:58:49 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jan 14, 2020 16:58:49 GMT -8
This sounds at least a bit like The Day the Earth Stood Still (which TCM is showing tonight), and for that matter Leonard Nimoy's novelty song "Highly Illogical" (which is on one of my Dr. Demento collections). I suspect I've encountered the idea elsewhere as well.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 19:26:58 GMT -8
Good idea.
|
|
|
Clara
Jan 14, 2020 19:52:12 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jan 14, 2020 19:52:12 GMT -8
I think that warning sign is excellent. I was wondering if there might be some type of warning on the aliens' GPS or UPS (Universe positioning system) device.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Clara
Jan 14, 2020 20:08:52 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 14, 2020 20:08:52 GMT -8
Thank you, Mr. Kung. One of the things that intersects on what I do for a living. When I’m not watching documentaries. Maybe we’re in the “Gamma Quadrant.” I forget which quadrant in Babylon 9 was considered sort of the trailer-trash part of the galaxy. I haven’t kept up on SETI. But I’ve read bits and pieces over the years. I believe they keep upgrading the technology to add to the speed of scanning bandwidths but also in how many bandwidths they can scan at once. They’ve probably advanced their Algoreithms as well for detecting the blips that aren’t random. (They should set their scanners on Twitter and see if they can find any information in all that static.) According to Wiki, SETI has been going since the early 80s. And I’m at least half surprised that they haven’t found anything. I wish them well and these are the kinds of project that excite me even if they rationale for them is infused with pseudo-science. Scanning that article, it seems as if China is doing some of this as well. As you know, they expect a signal to be in the universal language of mathematics (for intentional signals). It would probably be something like using a series of bursts to denote the first ten prime numbers (1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29). More speculative (or hopeful) guesses is that they would send a long message with the first part of the message being instructions for how to decode the rest of the message. That would sure be a puzzle to solve. I doubt we would have solved the hieroglyphics without the Rosetta Stone. It surely would have taken a lot longer. What would they tell us? Wouldn’t it be interesting to hear a piece of what they consider their best music. (God, I hope Justin Bieber is not an the kind of thing that is intergalactic.) As someone mentioned, you might wonder what sort of religious beliefs they would have. They might be very strange or surprisingly similar. And what color would their skin actually be? It would be so cool if technologically advanced aliens had white skin. Galactic privilege.
|
|
|
Clara
Jan 14, 2020 20:22:58 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jan 14, 2020 20:22:58 GMT -8
I heard of SETI before the 1980s, and I see that the article mentions many earlier efforts. One suggestion I occasionally saw was the idea of a radio signal consisting of a number of pulses that form the multiple of two prime numbers, forming a picture with information about the system and people who sent it. I seem to recall having one such message as an extra-credit question in one of my courses. (I didn't get it.)
Considering how long hieroglyphic inscriptions were available without being read, I doubt it would ever have been gotten without the Rosetta Stone or something like that. An early Cretan script, Linear A, remains unread to this day. This is a point brought up in H. Beam Piper's "Omnilingual", which I believe we had a discussion about on ST.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 15, 2020 9:06:45 GMT -8
10 SETI Messages That We May Not Want to Receive (it also includes a good overview of the overall project)
You might not want to watch that. The guy drones on. But some of the comments to the video are hilarious. One commenter writes:
And...
There's a bit of Douglas Adams in the air there.
|
|
|
Post by artraveler on Jan 15, 2020 14:26:44 GMT -8
According to Wiki, SETI has been going since the early 80s. And I’m at least half surprised that they haven’t found anything That is the beauty of the program. They have made the entire universe a search field and when questioned about why nothing has been found. The answer is easy: 1. We don't have the right telescopes 2. The Universe is big 3. Aliens are hiding And the most important number 4. WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY Number 4 makes any excuse pale in comparison to the real world. Any government or quasi-government entity will spend all the money they get, produce few noticeable results and claim the poor performance is because they don't have enough money. This maxim can be applied to just about every public funded adventure I know of.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Clara
Jan 15, 2020 17:15:41 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 15, 2020 17:15:41 GMT -8
I’m only laughing because it’s true.
I just think we need to sit still on a dark starry night, look up, and be in awe. I think every time we make up some story for why we haven’t found evidence of extraterrestrial life, we just sound silly. It’s a “forest for the trees” situation. Intelligence is all around us. Just like in The Mary Tyler Moore Show which said “love is all around”.
Psalm 19:1-4 reads:
And the thing is, when “science” explores the deep structure of the physical universe, the noise gets louder. It’s screaming “This is no accident.”
Romans 1:20 is a little pluckier about it:
Oh, there are plenty of reasons not to believe anyone’s particular religious dogma. But we’re living steeped in the workings of intelligence. Whether some galactic neighbor can make himself known to us would surely be interesting. But it’s a sideshow.
|
|
|
Clara
Jan 15, 2020 21:57:41 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Jan 15, 2020 21:57:41 GMT -8
Na, na, na, na, na! We now know how life got started on planet earth.
If this little beauty is responsible for life on earth, why did they have to go 1.5 miles down in the ocean to find this little bit? I would have thought it would be like that rhyme by Dr. Suess, "From there to here and here to there Prometheoarchaeum syntrophicum is everywhere."
|
|
|
Clara
Jan 15, 2020 22:18:50 GMT -8
Post by timothylane on Jan 15, 2020 22:18:50 GMT -8
Well, it could be so. Of course, without proof that this would actually work, and that such an organism existed 2 billion years ago, it's just speculation. Until then, it's about as scientific as the Harry Turtledove short-short about alien visitors having to empty out their aquarium 550 million years ago.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Clara
Jan 16, 2020 8:42:48 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 16, 2020 8:42:48 GMT -8
Bio-luminescence seems a prime example of how one species can swallow another and make use of it. But no evolution happens in terms of the basic DNA of either. It’s a symbiotic relationship. And if some micro evolution occurs to accommodate this relationship, this would be interesting but would say nothing about the origin of both species to begin with.
I can guarantee you that they didn’t witness anything “evolving into more complex cells.” However, perhaps they witnessed a symbiotic relationship forming. Or a parasitic one. I guess if one is “engulfed” you have to do the math and see if one or either is better off or if both make out on the deal.
They have a stock image on that article of prokaryotes whose caption reads: “They were on Earth for two billion years before more complex life evolved.” Both Intelligent Design advocates and Darwinian priests must figure out either 1) Why God would be content with such simple creatures for two billion years or, 2) Why evolution was so enormously unable to produce squat in two billion years given that in the mere 20 million years of the Cambrian Explosion an entire Doctor Doolittle zoo of unique animal forms was produced.
All I’m saying is that an article like this is like a fairy tale for atheists. It comforts them to be told that (once again) they discovered a “missing link.” But all they’ve discovered is more wondrous complexity. And there has been zero demonstration of evolution via the Darwinian model.
|
|
|
Post by timothylane on Jan 16, 2020 10:18:31 GMT -8
I don't recall the details, but I did read a book that suggested that such forms of symbiosis are at least as important a driver in evolution as mutation. Some cellular organelles, such as mitochondria (which have their own DNA, which can be used to trace matrilineal ancestry), seem to spring from such engulfment. For that matter, intestinal bacteria are very important in mammals (and probably other vertebrates), so even humans do this.
On the other hand, if you eat an octopus you won't develop tentacles, and if you eat a lobster you won't develop claws or antennae, and if you eat a bird you won't develop wings. It seems to happen only with microscopic creatures being absorbed.
|
|
Brad Nelson
Administrator
עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
Posts: 12,271
|
Clara
Jan 16, 2020 11:40:34 GMT -8
Post by Brad Nelson on Jan 16, 2020 11:40:34 GMT -8
I agree with you there, especially the “seems.” But if such an engine worked so well (and it does), one wonders why it would evolve in one place and not another. What could be more useful or important to a cell than a power supply? And yet the supposedly all-creative and all-powerful Darwinian evolutionary theory has not actually created anything other than mitochondria. And even then, it was simply eaten.
Here we reach the paradox of Darwinian Evolutionary Theory. All examples fit the theory. If there are many features (such as five-fingered hands) appearing among various species who do no otherwise seem related, it a result of necessity, of the creative power of evolution reaching the same design. You might expect this too regarding various cellular power sources, including mitochondria (whether acquired from without or otherwise).
The constant explanation for a feature of a creature is that it “evolved” to fulfill some necessity or useful function. And yet why are humans the only ones with such complex brains? (Yes, dolphins and whales may be included in that.) If they are so bleedin’ useful (and they are), why don’t more animals have them?
If echolocation for seeing in the night is so useful, why don’t humans have that as well? Goodness, think of the distinct advantage any tribe would have with de facto night vision against their enemies (or the dangers of predatory animals in the darkness).
When there are common features (such as the five-fingered hand in monkeys and apes), it is said to be due to a common ancestor. And yet humans have human eyes and insects have a compound eye. In this case, the differences are also supposedly due to evolution. (Different branches on the tree, don’t you know.) But, again, to the best of my knowledge, this “tree of life” motif is hopelessly outdated given the strange and conflicting results that actual analysis of DNA gives. You can, in fact, construct many different trees but no single unambiguous “tree of life” Darwinian evolutionary tree.
This would, of course, fit the Kungian rule: Life is complex. So whatever has created the various species, we might expect a fair amount of complexity involved. And the real world does appear to be far more interesting and complex than the rather stale and outdated Darwinian evolutionary theory — a theory that is still useful on the micro level but seemingly nowhere else.
And “engulfment” is also cited as a means of evolution. Fine. That might have happened as well. So at the end of the day, “evolution” as a scientific theory is so ad hoc and open-ended, it says nothing because it covers everything. Nothing found in nature (including the disjointed fossil record) can falsify Darwinian evolutionary theory.
But I’ll grant you that if one is released from the shackles of this theory then one is free to observe what is actually in nature and perhaps even come up with some reasonable theories. Indeed, mitochondria could have been swallowed by cells long ago and found themselves a good power factory. But as soon as the voodoo phrase “evolved” enters the picture, then you know someone is talking out of his butt. He’s stating assumptions, not facts. He's forwarding ideology, not science.
|
|