Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 6, 2020 9:53:56 GMT -8
It's interesting that, at least according the Genesis, God had first intended all life on earth to be vegetarian.
But when we get to chapter 9, that changes:
Prager notes that some assert that the Bible's ultimate idea is vegetarianism. That would certainly make sense if things started (were created) that way. Whatever the case may be, God does command humane treatment of animals. That is binding on all people, not just Jews. They even get a day of rest.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 9:19:38 GMT -8
One of the nice aspects of reading Prager’s “The Rational Bible: Genesis” (I’ve previously read his book on Exodus in this series) is that you learn how much you didn’t know.
I doubt most Christians have a basic understanding of the Old Testament. And I would bet there are a fair number of Jews who have less than a basic understanding of the Torah.
Regarding the story of Noah and the ark, Dennis takes the story as literally true. Setting that aside, the gist of the story is that man had become so evil that goodness required that God put an end to it.
I believe there was a large flood and it was likely the flooding of the region now comprised of the Black Sea from the breaking of the isthmus at where Constantinople is/was (now the Bosporus Straight). But as a means of eradicating humans in order to “reset,” drowning them slowly via a flood would be the method of a cruel god.
I think Prager is weak on evaluating some of these aspects and a little too gullible. But he’s often of the mind, “Whatever the case may be, it’s the message that God wanted to convey that is paramount….and his message had to be understandable.”
Okay. Maybe. I find the Flood account to be interesting but almost a sure sign that the Torah can’t always be relied on as an exact history. But I did find Prager’s exposition on the Tower of Babel to be interesting. It wasn’t that God was pissed off at the arrogance of trying to build a tower to reach God. (Why would He ever find that offensive?) It was that God was against urbanization and one-world government. That is, God was on the side of a diversity of nations and styles, so long they adhered to the Torah.
Prager notes that although cities have been a blessing in terms of the arts, museums, etc., they are usually the most morally corrupt places. God recognized that as well.
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Post by timothylane on Apr 7, 2020 9:27:46 GMT -8
Just out of curiosity, did Prager note that the Bible refers not to Mt. Ararat but to the "mountains of Ararat"? Ararat (Urartu) was a mountainous region, so we don't really know which mountain (though Rohl did propose a specific mountain in the area, just as he did with the Garden of Eden). I think Mt. Ararat is the highest in the area, making it a logical choice in its way.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 9:36:11 GMT -8
Prager goes out of his way to emphasize the Torah is not just a Jew thing:
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Prager notes the historical realities that have complicated keeping Jews alive and thus the task of spreading the Torah. He also note that countries, such as America, who have generally protected the Jew have flourished.
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Have Jews (religious or otherwise) become sort of an in-bred clique? Yes. But in some respects, it was meant to be this way (or, at least, that is part of the equation). Prager writes:
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 9:44:01 GMT -8
In the translation he’s using, the Torah says: “8.4 . . . the ark came to rest on the mountain of Ararat.”
The only issue is an apparent conflict in two different verses about when the ark grounded itself upon this mountain’s peak:
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 10:01:51 GMT -8
This is now how you sign up for Prager’s Passover Seder. Go to this page at PragerU. There’s a box near the bottom where you can input your email address so that you can be notified. I assume that return email will provide you with a choice of links because the page notes that the Seder will be available at PragerU, Facebook, and YouTube.
I had a good friend in school named "James Sedor." I don't know if he was Jewish (he was very intelligent, if that's a clue). But I wonder if that name is related to "Seder".
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Post by timothylane on Apr 7, 2020 10:05:42 GMT -8
There are a couple of small groups of surviving Samaritans, but those are sort of a Jewish heresy. There are also people called "Assyrians", but I don't know if they have any special connection to ancient Assyrians. There certainly aren't any Aramaeans, Chaldeans, Elamites, Hittites, or Sumerians or Akkadians. Even the Egyptians are heavily Arabian, and the Greeks are actually a conglomeration of tribes (such as the Ionians and Dorians). So the Jews (or at least the Sephardim) are unusual in that way.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 7, 2020 10:06:13 GMT -8
No doubt true, but among Protestant denominations, particularly those labeled as "evangelical" the Old Testament was regularly studied and taught. A knowledge of it was seen as a requirement to understand the message of Christianity. Sunday school was when much of this teaching was done.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 10:12:13 GMT -8
Thanks for the info. I’m certainly getting my work in. And I know there are people who read the Old Testament. But I honestly would have little hope of understanding it without Prager’s comments. I trust that he is not ideologically or religiously dishonest, and there is good reason for this belief. And at times when I find his analysis a little weak, well, what can one really do when one is describing a talking snake? You make what sense of it that you can, as he does. A bit too easily for my taste, but zillions of people have been looking at this stuff and his is only one opinion. But I do think his is one heck of a good opinion to go by because he himself is so well-read and is not just a one-trick-pony one-furrow sort of thinker.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 10:14:20 GMT -8
And it really hits you when reading this (especially as Prager dramatically presents it), after 2000 years they are home again. Quite remarkable.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 10:24:32 GMT -8
I found this to be a interesting quote from Prager:
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 10:29:37 GMT -8
I have to admit, where Dennis finds a difference with Christianity (as often practiced and believed by many), I find myself siding with Dennis, as in this: Prager notes that this is far from worshipping nature which he says is amoral, at best. He writes in his current article the same thoughts that abound in his books:
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Post by timothylane on Apr 7, 2020 11:12:52 GMT -8
That was an outstanding point about hospitals, which is in fact applicable to medicine in general.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 12:24:06 GMT -8
Yes. Lots of good wisdom in both the Torah and Prager (who abides by the Torah).
Here’s good news (at least for me):
Let’s just say converting to Judaism would be a piece of cake (unleavened cake?) for me without getting into further details. Had the covenant between God and man required tattoos, you could have counted me out.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 12:30:41 GMT -8
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Most of these concepts are new to me. That’s the primary reason I’m reading this, to gain context.
Assuming the Torah is substantially true, it’s not difficult to see one major reason that Jews have been persecuted: People don’t like having their sins pointed out to them. They don’t like party-poopers. One can sympathize with many Jews who have turned inward, perhaps forgetting that they are the Chosen People — not so that they can sit around and back-slap each other about being better, but so they can help to bring the Torah and God to the rest of a heathen world.
You’re just not generally going to get a lot of thanks for that.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 7, 2020 12:34:54 GMT -8
It was not until I heard explanations like this from Prager that I began to understand the role of ritual and thus the need for it. But then, as I’ve been saying, there are very few people out there educating anyone on these basics. We’re not (perhaps unfortunately) born with this knowledge and wisdom.
And given how secular/atheist pop culture belittles anything that might lead to a contemplative moment, it’s difficult even for thoughtful and sincere people to find their way amongst all the muck.
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Post by timothylane on Apr 7, 2020 12:44:44 GMT -8
Apparently this is one difference between Americans and Europeans. Circumcision is rare among European Gentiles, but rather common in America. No doubt this reflects the fact that anti-Semitism has traditionally run rampant in Europe, but much less so (especially the virulent kinds, e.g. the Dreyfus Case, pogroms, and the Holocaust) in America.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 7, 2020 13:03:32 GMT -8
An interesting piece on John Lennox in which he appears to agree with my previous post about people learning from pain.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 7, 2020 13:06:13 GMT -8
Without getting into details, as far as I know, circumcision is widely practiced in the USA for medical and health reasons. Its practice has little or nothing to do with anti or philo-Semitism.
It is not practiced in most of Asia and most Asians know little to nothing of the Jews.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 7, 2020 13:21:51 GMT -8
The large majority of laws in the Torah have to do with temporal/physical things.
Many years ago, I came across a book which talked about the problem of Asia's very strong emphasis on ritual. Too often, there is little if any discussion on what the ritual is supposed to represent. It is merely rote practice. Once the ritual is not practiced you have little else to guide the people morally.
Christianity, while having some amount of ritual, was not built around it.
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