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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 9, 2020 8:52:55 GMT -8
Probably. I recall a fair amount of Slivovitz flowing. I would prefer Crown Royal or apricot schnapps.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 9, 2020 8:55:02 GMT -8
That was a great moment when Dr. Murmer was talking about how he, as a child, was able to run on and on with his commentary because the Jewish law regarding the Seder is the more exposition the better. Very funny moment when they were talking about that. Tradition/Law overruled his mother and she knew it.
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Post by timothylane on Apr 9, 2020 8:56:15 GMT -8
I can say that the communion wine used in the Episcopalian church was sour. The grape juice Lynette Cowper used in her non-denominational services at InConJunction (which Elizabeth attended, of course) probably tasted better. Of course, the standard for Passover is different, but if Christians can use grape juice instead of wine for communion, I see no reason Jews can't do the same for their seders.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 9, 2020 8:57:09 GMT -8
I can understand that. Mothers can rarely be silenced.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 9, 2020 8:58:56 GMT -8
The Bible often uses the term "Fruit of the Vine." Furthermore, I believe what was called wine 3,000 years ago is very different from what we call wine today.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 9, 2020 9:07:12 GMT -8
Dennis got in a couple plugs for some of his books (which were relevant plugs). (And I’ve bought both of his Rational Bible books.) But it was very generous of him to let us into his home. Have you ever seen anyone so comfortable in front of a camera or audience? I have not. He doesn’t seem to be “on.” Yes, Johnny Carson was comfortable in front of a camera but you knew he was “on,” that he was performing.
What is probably the reality is that his Seder is a bit above average….just as some Christians have a more meaningful Christmas while others over-indulge on the material aspect of things. That made it nice to witness. And it also sounds as if during this week they get a chance to enjoy some very good food.
Again, I don’t know if this Seder (and his understanding of it) is typical. I’m guessing not many Jews may sit around and notice that it is not Moses who is glorified. (And think Dennis mentioned that Moses is mentioned only once in the traditional Seder.) This is because it was God, not Moses, who freed them from enslavement by the Egyptians.
He noted that this would like Americans talking about the creation of their country without mentioning George Washington. A very interesting thought. I suppose had God sunk a few British ships, he'd have a point. But then many believe Providence was highly in play, if not the driving force for our Revolution.
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 9, 2020 9:14:09 GMT -8
I must say that his home took me back in time. It had an upper-middle-class Central European look about it. This is the type of home I knew well. A very comfortable yet classy place.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 9, 2020 9:44:32 GMT -8
Yes, a nice setting. And I had expected his wife and maybe a few friends to be there sitting around the table. I suppose they were all following “social distancing” and that the wife prefers to remain off-camera. Clearly the two men who were on-camera were very comfortable with it.
Just from a technical/production aspect, I think it worked very well how Dr. Murmer would fade in and out when he had something to say. He was in that little window at the bottom right. I think he said that the Dr. has something to do with Prager U as well.
I’m not sure a Freudian psychiatrist, proper, is the person I would go to for mental health issues. But I would lie on that guy’s coach and at least give it a try. “Mr. Nelson. Your neuroses all stem from your fear of Godzilla.”
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Post by kungfuzu on Apr 9, 2020 11:01:56 GMT -8
Yes, and it was humorous when just after that, Prager something about wasabi being the ultimate in bitter herbs.
I also found Prager was very funny when he mimicked his secular uncle saying "Hilda, when are we gonna eat?" And "Hilda, I need some Tums."
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 9, 2020 11:07:20 GMT -8
That was hilarious. He knows his people. Maybe all people to some extent. Or just family-dynamics people.
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Post by timothylane on Apr 9, 2020 13:43:19 GMT -8
I sent out my Easter season greetings to Elizabeth's siblings today, one of whom planned on calling her and relaying my message. Along with the message, I sent a recommendation for Prager's Rational Bible series. Her sister Alice said she thought her husband had seen or heard something from Prager, and her brother Jack (a Southern Baptist preacher in Japan) said he listens to Prager whenever he can.
Perhaps one of them will buy the books and let the rest of us know about it.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 9, 2020 14:37:44 GMT -8
Let me know if Sister Alice's husband find's that book of interest. There's a lot of material in there that not only explains the bible passages but provides ammunition against all the slander from the Left and atheists regarding them. I think everyone could learn something from these books.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 13, 2020 7:52:05 GMT -8
Here’s another quote from Prager’s “The Rational Bible: Genesis”:
I heard (or read) something yesterday that mentioned “the Abrahamic religions.” That is 99.99% of the time an attempt to attribute normalcy and legitimacy to Islam.
But although Abraham is certainly central to the story of the Jews, Prager again and again notes:
The story of the Jews is a sub-story in the overall story of Ethical Monotheism, of the one, true, non-pagan god who is not nature but exists outside of nature and created nature, whose main attribute is Goodness.
It’s interesting that, as best we know, Abraham and Sarah lived apart after this test by God. Prager speculates that perhaps she was appalled by what Abraham had almost done, or had been willing to do. I guess you can’t blame her.
Prager notes that neither Sarah, Abraham, or Isaac benefit from this test. The test might have had more general lessons to teach. He writes:
And…
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 13, 2020 7:59:18 GMT -8
Here Prager makes a general statement, something I know we’ve discussed here (and agreed upon):
Gotta love it.
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Post by timothylane on Apr 13, 2020 8:41:16 GMT -8
Certainly the Bible, in its historical books, would always rate the kings (especially of Judah, those in Israel being pretty much a lost cause for Yahweh) not only on their righteousness, but on whether they got rid of the high places where pagans sacrificed to various baalim (such as Moloch). Part of this was anti-paganism, but I can see where part of this was also hostility to human sacrifice.
Of course, at other times (such as dealing with the Amalekites), Yahweh could be pretty bloodthirsty. And he didn't punish Jephthah for sacrificing his daughter in fulfillment of a promise that he didn't expect to work out so painfully.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 13, 2020 11:17:25 GMT -8
Prager has a good essay in his book talking about the Jewish belief in the afterlife. I had always assumed this was an open question or a question answered mostly in the negative by Jews.
Turns out, there is clear evidence (such as “Being gathered to your kin” when you die) that the Torah is explicit about the existence of an afterlife even if it gives it little mention. Our job is to abide by the Torah and make this life more heaven-like, and then come what may. Prager notes the disastrous influence of Islamic belief in 72 virgins, and all that.
I agree with him. And he says that even though many Jews have been taught that there is no afterlife, they are misguided.
Jews and Christians can have an honest disagreement about whether or not Jesus is the Messiah. But the more I delve into the actual texts (granted, with crucial aid from Prager), the more I realize that the famous Chesterton quote universally applies to both: “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.”
In essence, I would say things are so off-track, you need to get back to the basics and past the groupthink of any particular denomination or interpretation. We’re seeing during this virus hysteria that “experts” (outside strict, engineering-based things) is near worthless.
In some respects, being an apostate from your own “religion” could be considered a good starting point.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 14, 2020 8:13:31 GMT -8
Here’s some more good commentary by Prager from his “The Rational Bible: Genesis”:
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Post by timothylane on Apr 14, 2020 9:07:18 GMT -8
I'm surprised that there's a mention of the Philistines in Genesis. I thought the Israelites didn't encounter the Sea People until they conquered Canaan. Was this a foreshadowing?
In any case, there have been other such incidents. Hugh Thomas, in his The Spanish Civil War, mentioned (as all too typical of Spanish history) Spanish crusaders filling in Moorish irrigation canals when they finally conquered Granada in 1492. And of course the Gaza Hamasites destroyed Israeli infrastructure in the area rather than make use of anything built by Jews. The problem in many of these cases is fanatical hatred on a tribal basis (usually religious) rather than envy, but envy also combines well with such hatred.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 14, 2020 12:51:29 GMT -8
You need a scorecard to figure out who begat who, who gave birth to this or that nation, which nations (for a time) were allies, which nations (for a time) were enemies. I guess that’s why they (someone) wrote all that down.
We're just getting to Jacob so there's not a lot about him yet. But it would appear, on the face of it, that Isaac was a pretty commendable, normal, somewhat pedestrian, and nice guy. That’s not to say that Abraham wasn’t or Jacob wasn’t. But if you had to sit down and have a brewski with one of the Patriarchs, I’d choose Isaac.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Apr 14, 2020 19:05:35 GMT -8
I found the story of Jacob and Esau to be difficult — perhaps in large part to Prager’s willful wallpapering over of the moral problems.
This is the first story I’ve run into that I would say is really morally messy.
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