Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 21, 2023 9:25:44 GMT -8
James was clearly not an idiot. So very, very true. My initial inquiry was about how to translate 32 AD (or thereabouts) to today. To quote Dennis Prager, "Good intentions cause most of the world's great evils." Dennis goes on to write about important advice he got from a Rabbi: This is an incomprehensible idea to 99% of people today who are so involved in puffing themselves up, it's truly offensive to them if they are reminded that (wait for it) it's not all about them. Prager continues: That is why this guy is my spiritual Rabbi. In short, I think the approach in this modern age given the present lay of the land is "First do no harm." If we'd just stop digging the hole, if we simply worked and did something useful, if we simply did nothing more than do no harm we could instantly sift all our problems down to a manageable size. But for most people, it's all about them. All that matters to them is that they feel good about themselves as a do-gooder. There care not a whit for the swath of destruction they leave behind. I think James would definitely relate to what Prager and the Rabbi were saying. |
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 21, 2023 13:19:51 GMT -8
There are always a few of those around.
I think that's a very insightful view. I'd never really thought about it like that before. But it has the ring of truth to it, Jesus Denier.
We humans don't seem to be wired for balance and wisdom. Belief in God is commendable. But if "God" is just a stand-in for one's ego or superego, then we're not talking about God. We're talking about self-worship. If I attack your idea of "God," you see, I'm actually attacking you, for no human in his right mind could think that the Almighty needs our help with a few insults or just with a different way of seeing things.
So I would say there is belief and then there is belief. Without an admixture of humility, reverence, and healthy self-doubt, "God" simply becomes a vehicle in which to enlarge ourselves, not a means to come to know (however we may) the Ultimate.
This is where I'm supposed to say something condescending and trite to the J.D. But the fact is, Dennis Prager cracks me up when he recites what apparently is an old Jewish saying: If God lived on earth, people would break his windows.
I have nothing trite or condescending to say. Let's just say that I understand your point of view because it is not in the least foreign to my own.
But I will say that I know I'm wrong. It's not reasonable. It's not rational. But I believe it to be true. Believing something and living it, of course, are two different things. I have a small pile of rocks gathered in the event that He buys the place down the road that is up for sale.
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Brad Nelson
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עַבְדְּךָ֔ אֶת־ הַתְּשׁוּעָ֥ה הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 21, 2023 13:35:55 GMT -8
And as much as I am against cruel and unusual punishment, I think those officials involved should be publicly flogged. Literally. Doesn't have to be too hard. Draw no blood. But they need to be publicly humiliated. It's not enough just to pay out what I assume is just taxpayer money to other taxpayers and call it good. That is, of course, the perfectly sensible thing to do Mr. Rench. Somehow. Must have just blew in on the wind. A random occurrence. No possible antecedent. Just a freak accident.
I will not use any programming language such as: 10 Let women = "in charge and running rampant" 20 If hysteria-ensues then blame_racist_men else promote_more_Weirdo_Culture
Syntax error line 20. Misplaced use of "if" instead of "the certainty of" Still, at least the paying out of money is some kind of acknowledgment of wrong-doing. |
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 21, 2023 15:36:50 GMT -8
This is touched on in a number ways and a number of times in the New Testament. For example.
Mark 12:41-44
41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.
43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”
And
Matthew 6:1-6
1 "Be careful not to parade your religion before others; if you do, no reward awaits you with your Father in heaven.
2 "So, when you give alms, do not announce it with a flourish of trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Truly I tell you: they have their reward already. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing; 4 your good deed must be secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
5 Again, when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; they love to say their prayers standing up in the synagogues and at street corners for everyone to see them. Truly I tell you: they have their reward already. 6 But when you pray, go into a room by yourself, shut the door, and pray to your Father Who is in secret; and your Father Who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
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Post by artraveler on Jul 21, 2023 16:42:50 GMT -8
Hang em high
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Post by artraveler on Jul 21, 2023 16:51:20 GMT -8
three Christian churchgoers Idaho has the second largest LDS population outside of Utah, yet the church did not protest. I wonder why? |
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Post by artraveler on Jul 21, 2023 17:04:20 GMT -8
But I will say that I know I'm wrong. It's not reasonable. It's not rational Yes, it is. I try to be accommodating to the individuals but as a group I admit my distrust, suspicion and ever lasting animosity with that vile religion and its deluded followers. I guess the result is the action, or lack of action I am willing to take in the name of revenge. In that regard my lady would have said, "just outlive the son of a bitch". That I intend to do. |
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 21, 2023 17:58:47 GMT -8
This is a pretty wide spectrum that we're talking about. We too often can be like that Indian parable of the blind men and the elephant. We can each be talking about something substantial and real, but God is a particularly big elephant. That said, I think what you said is profound. Religious practice outside of the social (or controlling) aspect is that mystical connection. That is true right across the boundaries of all good religions. Buddhists have the notion of not mistaking the finger for the moon. The finger points to the moon but is not the moon. There are various methods of religion (with multiple functions...sometimes a state function) that can serve as various different fingers. Some, by living in a somewhat monolithic religious community, find the moon in this way. Others mistake the finger for the moon and demand dogma and conformity as ends unto themselves. The Jews are a unique people and I think we still owe them a lot...often despite themselves. Jesus was a Jew. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.. The astonishing thing is that he may have indeed fulfilled those Laws and Prophets far beyond the willingness or ability for most – Jew or gentile – to believe. That really is the central question. This is the starting point for a view of God beyond participation in a religious community (as important as that is), beyond laws (as important as they are), and beyond man's government (as important as that is). This was God, for all intents and purposes (in my view), extending and broadening his covenant with humanity. He was condescending to speak to people in a more personal way, reminding us that the world was transient but the He was eternal. In the view of Christians (who often forget that Jesus is thoroughly Jewish), this was the fulfillment of the Bible, not an illegitimate (and wacko) bastardized offshoot like Islam. That Jews were ever persecuted by Christians is monstrous and goes straight to the heart of one of the most important commandments: Thou Shalt Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain. Which as we know through teacher, Prager, does not mean saying "God damn it." It, in a broad sense, means the misuse of religion. And Prager says this is one of the most damaging things that people can ever do. Agreed. Again, I think it's that finger and the moon thing. Ritual has a purpose outside of itself or else it is just (to borrow from James) a spiritually dead thing. There is surely why is says in Matthew 6:7-8: I've always loved that quote. No, religions devotion is not measured in how OCD you are.  |
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 21, 2023 18:05:40 GMT -8
No doubt. We must never forget that James, like Jesus and all his Apostles, was a Jew.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 21, 2023 18:06:17 GMT -8
That is one of the most profound passages in the Bible...or in any religious text. Nothing could describe better the need (if one believes in God) to set aside one's own puffed-up ego...if one is to put creation into a context larger than mere smug self-satisfaction. Above is not the doctrine to create fools, fakers, or fanatics.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 21, 2023 18:18:15 GMT -8
Given the enormity of God, the best man can do is grope like those blind men around the elephant. One may, gain a special insight into some particular aspect of God, but I suspect, that it the best anyone can do while residing on this side of the grass.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 21, 2023 18:31:33 GMT -8
That sentiment was still very strong when I was growing up. It permeated society so thoroughly that across British culture, and I maintain the culture of the USA was predominantly British until the 1960s destroyed things, that it was considered somewhat tacky to advertise/brag about what one gave to charity, much less the Church.
This struck me very strongly when I moved to Asia. Whenever there were big dos for charity, the Chinese would try to out shine each other with their public generosity. I found this very tasteless, and the Bible's quote about them already having received their reward came to mind. Charity was not their goal, being seen to give to charity was.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 21, 2023 18:44:28 GMT -8
Absolutely. That is why I quote such passages. Clearly, too many "Christians" do not read, or have forgotten the Bible. It is perhaps more likely that they don't like what the Bible says and therefore ignore it, except for snippets which they can cut and paste in order to conform to their Wokism, aka Marxism.
Nobody in the Bible says man is perfect or perfectable. Nobody in the Bible claims life is easy. The Bible does give time-tested guidelines for life. Nobody says they are easy to follow. Nobody claims anyone will be able to follow them without fail. What they do say is that if one follows these guidelines, one will be following, or at least trying to follow, a righteous path.
While one can disagree with or not believe the Bible, an honest and sane person cannot claim that the Bible produces evil results.
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Post by artraveler on Jul 21, 2023 20:26:21 GMT -8
So, when you give alms, do not announce it with a flourish of trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others This concept is not new, elements can be found through out scripture. One example can be found in Job who remains steadfast in the light of all his misfortune. Giving to the poor and misfortune is a mitzvah and never to be announced. Jesus is simply commenting on the trends of the times. Three hundred years of Hellenism and the arrival of the Romans had changed Jewish culture in ways many, including Jesus, did not approve. Commentaries from Talmud include an almost word for word quote. |
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 22, 2023 11:04:43 GMT -8
I think that's all extremely well said. And it's a reminder that this culture produces moral idiots because very few people are able to talk on this level.
Whatever your belief in God, I think we agree that the belief is not unreasonable, although the Devil may be literally in the details.
But there is more than just disbelief out there. There is outright hostility to the idea of God. I was just watching a video where Paul, of Mr. Carlson' Lab (one of the few adults on YouTube), was describing a severe electric shock he had received in his yute.
He's still not sure what happened but the end result was that his hand was trapped around a microphone while he was being shocked with high voltage. He couldn't let go and it looked like the end. And then all of a sudden (as he describes it) something knocked him back. He didn't describe falling off his chair. He said something knocked him back and it caused the mike to be ripped out of his hands.
One commenter thanked Paul's guardian angel for looking out for him. After the hailstorm of abusive comments, the guy finally comes back and says he meant it metaphorically.
My firm thesis aligns with that of Dennis Prager. Religion (whatever the reality of Creation) gives us a means to express our extra-rational thoughts and feelings. He said that without this, the exact opposite happens that is supposed by the materialist/Marxists to happen to the devout. And what they (nearly everyone) has been taught is that religion is a malevolent force that turns you into an irrational person.
Prager believes (as I do as well) that without the outlet of religion (or just the consideration that there is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, etc.), then irrationality most certainly will enter your mind and endeavors. And I think we see that. No religion (even the bad ones such as Islam) teach that there is no such thing as a boy or girl. But the"scientifically-minded" people of today believe that. And that bit of irrationality, as you know, is just the tip of the iceberg on the stunningly stupid and irrational things that people believe.
Many of our disputes with the Left aren't necessarily centered on policy. I think the plain fact is that they are a little nuts (some are way nuts) and shouldn't be trusted to run with scissors, let alone reshape society according to their beliefs.
Religious belief did not prevent Newton and others like him from making scientific discoveries. And I do think that this reflexive hatred of religion (of the idea of God, really and exactly) helps to breed moral idiots.
The astonishing thing is that, In DNA, never have we had better evidence of an intelligence beyond our own than today. I like to dabble in programming from time to time. And I can tell you that to do something even relatively simple takes an enormous amount of time and more than a little intelligence. To suppose that DNA (and the vast network of micro-machines that it codes for) are the result or random chance is laughable.
Back in the day, Paul (I think it was Paul...it's from Romans 1:20) wrote:
Indeed. If that was true then – and it clearly was – we have today unmistakable proof of an intelligence beyond our own.
An entire generation or two has been made blind and dumb by atheism...and more than a little intolerant and prickly.
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Post by kungfuzu on Jul 22, 2023 19:23:50 GMT -8
I suspect you are correct. A correction was necessary. While much of what Jesus said is contained in the Old Testament, the reach of that book was limited to the Jews. Great for the Jews, but not so much for the rest of the world. Something like the Vikings coming upon Newfoundland might have been good for them, but since they didn't tell anyone else about it, the rest of the world had to wait for Christopher Columbus to "discover" the New World. I believe that a big part of Jesus' message was to spread Jewish ethics to the Gentiles. And of course, Peter and Paul agreed that the Gentiles should profit from this, not only the Jews. It should not be forgotten that the Talmud(s), Babylonian and Jerusalem, were put in writing long after Jesus was crucified. As I understand it, they came about for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that there had been centuries of oral discussions and debates about the Mishnah and the priests/scholars were not comfortable with Judaea being under Roman rule, in the case of the Jerusalem Talmud. No doubt, Jesus was part of this debate so it is not surprising that one can see sentiments from the Talmud preached by Jesus and sentiments of Jesus mentioned in the Talmud. They were in the same pool of thought. The area in which Jesus did much of his teaching is also the area in which famous Talmudic academies were located. Coincidence? I think not. |
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Post by artraveler on Jul 22, 2023 20:13:14 GMT -8
since they didn't tell anyone else about it, the rest of the world had to wait On a larger sense that is true. however, Torah as it was written was intended for a homogenous people living in community. The 613 laws and commandments were specific for Hebrew people and while they had small (c) catholic application converting is and never was a large part of our philosophy. Was this a mistake? It is hard to say, For over a thousand years Israel was stationed between major powers and at the crossroads of trade. It was often by playing powers off against each other that the kingdom, and the temple survived. Resentment against Rome peaked in 79 CE and continued in sporadic form for the next 50 years until 132 CE when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. I think the destruction and disporia for 2000 years is sufficient a cultural shock, comparable to the viking invasions of England and Northern Europe, to make the claim that rabbinical Judaism did make the change to a small (c) catholic appeal. What never happened, except on a small scale in Eastern Europe was the urge to convert. Becoming Jewish, even in the 21st century is not something done on a whim. It can take years and even if done with the most sincere of Rabbis some, Hasidic groups, will refuse to recognize the conversion, here or in Israel. And don't get me started on marriage and divorce. A can of worms no one wants to open. |
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 23, 2023 7:55:55 GMT -8
I seriously doubt we could have this discussion anywhere else because the Jews killed Jesus, and that's that.
From the human standpoint, I can't help thinking of the line by Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
The Jews were living in a hostile world amongst barbarians and were trying to live to a higher standard. No one can fault them for not setting as their goal the desire to spread their beliefs, although I do think Prager says that in the doctrine is just this requirement.
But I don't know how Disney Corp. runs their stupid company let alone how God Almighty runs the world. You would suppose, from the evidence, He is not a micro-manager and leaves most of it to us...to usually screw up, of course.
But I think it's true that any human institution, whether infused by the Hand of God or not, goes stale and dull and needs to be "refreshed from time to time." Certainly Jesus the Rabbi, at the very least, was about doing just that. Judaism, like Protestantism or Catholicism, had gone off the rails a bit. St. Francis' role was precisely (even if that was not his conscious intention) to reinvigorate the Christian/Jewish message. Paul and others represented, so far as I can see, a Jewish reformation with the idea that if these ideas are good enough for Jews, they ought to be good enough for everyone.
And, indeed, I don't think they were wrong. But there was this natural clash between the gentiles and their pagan ways and the core Hebrews who were always tasked with following umpteen Mosaic laws. You weren't going to turn the rest of the world into Jews, proper. Nor were you going to get the authentic Jews to suddenly ditch their laws in the name of progress. Paul probably walked this razor's edge as well as anyone.
And so the Jews killed Jesus and that's all that a thinking person needs to know. But the truth is, we are all lost tribes, scattered about, forgetting that there is indeed a Creator and that man is not the measure of all things.
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Post by artraveler on Jul 23, 2023 14:25:03 GMT -8
Reprint from 2012
Jesus Was the
First Libertarian
Jesus was the first Libertarian. There it is said, but does that make it so? There are undoubted thousands perhaps millions who would contend with that statement and have excellent reasons to dispute based on scripture and two thousand years of history. Most theologians would probably not even give the matter a second thought. Partly because they do not understand Libertarian principle; that is in such a diverse group a principle can even be defined, but also modern political thought is that Libertarians are at best agnostic and at worst atheist. The exquisiteness of the Libertarian philosophy is that doctrinaire adherence to a singular mode of thought is anathema to the Libertarian. So, how does Jesus fit the Libertarian mold?
The integrity of the individual is the first and most important part of Libertarian philosophy. How can we be or mean anything in society if our personal liberty is violated by outside powers? The Libertarian knows in his heart that God has established natural rights to the individual and as Jefferson said, “Among those rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. Jesus in his entire ministry talks about a personal relationship with God. A relationship that because of free will allows man to choose how he will converse with God. Jesus rejects a religion of formula and ritual in favor of a one-to-one relationship. He had ample opportunity to recreate the dogmas of the past and rejected them; favoring instead a free man, rather than man chained to obligatory ritual for the sake of ritual.
Jesus temptations and his answers provide enlightenment about freedom. Ha-Satan sought to tempt Jesus saying he could relieve the world of hunger if he would just turn stone to bread. Man would readily give up his freedom if Jesus would provide bread to relieve his hunger. We see this all over the world today where thousands and millions are starving; where governments are a part of the problem by corrupting the system. To control the masses the best and most effective tactic is to control the flow of food. Who can blame a father accepting food to feed a starving child if the cost is his vote for the political regime or the rebels who will gain control if he will join them in the fight?
Jesus example is difficult to follow. For you must reject the bread of today for the bread of life. Libertarians understand intuitively not as part of a grand philosophy but as part of liberty. Jesus rejected the argument that man must exchange bread for freedom. Had Jesus offered bread to the masses he would have satisfied the craving for someone to worship. Jesus, instead of taking the burden of freedom in exchange for bread; Jesus offered even more freedom.
n many different ways, is not an argument. Jesus is asked a question about taxes and turns it into a Libertarian response relating to property by saying, render on Caesar what is Caesar’s and onto God what is Gods. Nearly 1700 years before Adam Smith, Jesus acknowledges that property is component of liberty. Jesus set limits on what the government can ask of man and also what God can ask.
Jesus is tempted by the miraculous, and undeniably during his ministry he does perform miracles. He is tempted to throw himself from a cliff and the argument is that 10,000 angels would hold him up from death and prove his claim as God. Jesus did not come down from the cross, when mocked because he would not enslave man with a miracle. He sought faith based given freely; but man seeks not so much God as the miraculous and will create miracles of his own to worship and adore.
Lastly, Jesus is tempted with the power to rule the world; in effect to take the robe of Caesar, to found the universal state and rule men as they should be ruled with universal peace. He is tempted to offer freedom from freedom for submission to the state, to end want, slavery and war. After all, who is more qualified to rule men than He who holds their conscience, but also their bread in His hands? Then man will know that they are weak, timid and childlike and will follow. Jesus rejected the idea of a fawning and complacent man in favor of freedom.
Thus, Jesus is a Libertarian as he would not rule man but steps away from the cliff; to use power to do good with the powers of corruption, for Jesus knows that the corrupting influence once taken can never be given back. Libertarians come in many different types, some are Marxists, some are conservative, some are liberal, and some are progressive, but each will embrace freedom as they see it. Libertarians always run to the sound of battle and stand the wall against the barbarians, atheist, agnostic or believer every Libertarian in his heart agrees with Jesus.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Jul 24, 2023 6:33:28 GMT -8
Artler you are an asset to, and credit to, your country. I have no beef with you. And, yes, there is a big, gigantic butt coming:  The Libertarian Party officially endorses legalizing prostitution. In practice (if not also in platform), Libertarians support legalizing drugs, open borders, abortion, gay marriage, and pretty much every liberal "woke" thing that's going. One can have a discussion as to whether these are good things or bad things. But there can be little doubt that these are not Jesus things. Libertarians tend to pine for "liberty" as an entitlement, not as a God-granted right that must be respected, understood, and preserved. In that vein, every libertarian needs to read and understand these words: I would say in regards to Libertarians (not you, but as I meet them in the real world) that emphasizing "liberty" (and it's a shame I have to put that word in scare quotes) does not justify every kooky thing that tends to come out of their mouths. I fully support the idea that the Judaeo-Christian doctrine makes central the sanctity of the individual. Dennis Prager often notes the centrality of this Jewish/Christian view. It was so important they they had this engraved on the Liberty Bell: "Proclaim Liberty throughout all the Land unto all the Inhabitants thereof." But they were also well aware of the important difference between liberty and license. Between being a free man who would not let his passions forge his fetters and a man of libertine passions who tries to excuse his excesses as consecrated acts of "liberty." |
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