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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 25, 2019 18:09:13 GMT -8
It is called Seppuku. We have often heard the term Harakiri, which is not as high-class as Seppuku. I guess the samurai would commit Seppuku and the common people would commit Harakiri. Something like Wamba the fool's analogy of Pork and Swine.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 25, 2019 18:11:21 GMT -8
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 25, 2019 18:18:05 GMT -8
Seppuku is the individual action. This was about a group action. I had a look back in the book and finally found the word: gyokusai
And word to abandon this came from Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo’s headquarters. I assume that was not from Nagumo himself who had either already committed suicide or soon would.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 25, 2019 18:19:13 GMT -8
Another one who was a hero was Eddie Albert. As a landing craft pilot at Tarawa, while under heavy fire, he saved a lot of Marines stuck in the water. I can't recall where I heard this, but apparently, he motored the landing craft from Marine to Marine picking them up as he went along.
Not what one would imagine from a character who had to deal with Arnold the Pig, every now and again.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 25, 2019 18:22:09 GMT -8
That's a new one on me. Buts makes perfect sense as the Japanese generally act in groups thus they even have a specialized word for mass suicide.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 25, 2019 18:39:41 GMT -8
My father, the old gunny, did three of the worst in the pacific, Guadalcanal, Saipan, and Pelieu. In the summer of 45 he was training Marines in Australia for the invasion of Japan. He never talked about it much except when he was called up for Korea. He had joined Army National Guard and his was the one of the first units called up. He called his old Colonel, a guy named Puller, and rejoined 1st Marines. I asked him why and he said, "people get killed in the Army".
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 25, 2019 19:05:18 GMT -8
In the 1980s, I had some business dealings with a man who had been a Marine Sgt. of some sort. He told me that when he was landing on Iwo Jima that the man on each side of him was killed, he figured he was watched by God.
He also re-enlisted when Korea broke out and was at the Inchon landing. He said it was horrible. One would get off the landing craft and sink up to one's waste in mud.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 26, 2019 7:53:30 GMT -8
Way to go, Eddie Albert. Yeah. No kidding. I’m up to chapter 26, 52% into The Fleet at Flood Tide. The author only occasionally gives you grisly graphic details of battle wounds. But he does give you a good overall picture of what being in the battle on Saipan was like. Death became regular. Marines didn’t get worked up about a buddy getting wounded if only because he’s be sent out of it for a while, if not for the duration. More grave wounds gained immediate sympathy. Incredibly, at one point King and Nimitz visit Saipan. Against the advice of someone, they go to the top Mount Tapotchau. Rotting Japanese bodies are everywhere. The author notes that it was not just a pretended stiff upper lift by the command staff to treat this as normal. Nimitz and King had seen plenty of this before apparently. And despite warnings of possible snipers, Nimitz and King wanted to be driven around the entire perimeter of the island. Only Roosevelt could have stopped that decision and he wasn’t consulted. It came in increments, but the soldiers and the command staff came to the conclusion that this was a new kind of enemy. The author sums it up expertly when he writes: Lieutenant Commander Louis W. Mang was an advocate of napalm. He was having trouble selling it to the Pentagon so he decided to sell it in the field. He equipped the Army P-47 Thunderbolt pilots of the 318th Fighter Group at Isely Field in their use. A test mission was flown over Tinian with Harry Hill, Spruance, and Turner watching from a destroyer. They were impressed. With the loss of Saipan, quickly came the end of Tojo as Prime Minister. Surely there were divergent attitudes about how the war was going. But the author gives the impression that in many very high places the fall of Saipan was a decisive signal that the war was lost. Quite a few Marines with beaches left to conquer would certainly disagree. But perhaps (and the author does not do much analysis, per se), it was instructive to many Japanese who knew the basic facts that the suicidal defense of Saipan didn’t even slow down the Americans. But the Japanese military madness was so entrenched, denial and mania, not a negotiated surrender, obviously predominated. Much like Hitler, the top military officials saw a gyokusai for the whole nation as an honorable end. There’s one Japanese nurse on Saipan that the story follows along for quite a ways. Eventually she is captured. The grenade she tried to use to kill herself was a dud but still causes some injury. She’s treated and then insists that she wants to go back to her own field hospital to see what was left. For some reason (I think they were courting her as a source of information), they took her back. She saw the mass suicide/homicide. All the wounded were killed with grenades. In fact, the Marines noted that the intermittent sound of grenades going off near the end of the conflict was a common sound. They then took her to the cliff at the north of the island were so many — many through coercion — were tossed or jumped into the rocks and sea below. Someone asked this Japanese nurse why they killed themselves. She had no answer. But there was the fascinating story of a Mexican American named Guy Gabaldon. His early yute was He enlisted in the Marine Corps when he was seventeen: The author also notes: [ Original]
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 26, 2019 8:20:27 GMT -8
I cannot recall why, but I read about Gabaldon sometime in the last year or so. Perhaps we had a discussion about Saipan at ST. In any case, the man was amazing. That he was not awarded the Medal of Honor is a disgrace.
My, now deceased, doctor was a Petty Officer in the Navy before and during WWII. He was at Saipan while the battle raged. When I asked him about it all he would say was "it was a filthy place" and I believe he added "disgusting."
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Post by timothylane on Sept 26, 2019 9:16:26 GMT -8
That suicide cliff is impressive, though I had the impression that they jumped off into the water, which was on the other side. The Gabaldon story is also impressive in a different way.
Incidentally, I've added this to my list of books to consider buying. Fortunately, it's available in paperback.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 26, 2019 10:17:37 GMT -8
I think we can read into that a correct evaluation of the Japanese presence overall. It’s interesting considering the Japanese emphasis on aesthetics. There are several pages in the same section of the book that mentions Gabaldon that talks about the attempts to fashion propaganda with the purpose of inducing surrender.
Nimitz’s headquarters produced a cultural portrait of the Japanese for the benefit of propaganda writers and interrogators:
The centrality of the aesthetic perhaps explains the desire to make even defeat a grand and beautiful act although, in practice, Japanese militarism itself was indeed filthy and disgusting.
Another interesting factoid: Upon learning of the death of Nagumo, the normally poker-faced Spruance was said to be obviously pleased.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 26, 2019 10:20:37 GMT -8
There was a sister cliff that is less know if only because there is no road for tourists that leads to the top. This fellow (who is some kind of character) takes us to the "Sister of Suicide Cliff:"
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Post by timothylane on Sept 26, 2019 10:45:31 GMT -8
I take it he's pointing to the cliff overlooking the sea. That would presumably be the one I've read about. I did check out wikipedia on the subject once, and they did mention there were 2 cliffs (which no doubt is why we refer to the Suicide Cliffs of Saipan, i.e., plural).
That's a very interesting description of the Japanese in terms of their culture. I wonder if something like that would be allowed today. I also wonder what Elizabeth and her siblings would say about it. One of her brothers preaches at a Southern Baptist church in Japan, and of course his flock are mostly Japanese.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 26, 2019 10:46:55 GMT -8
Whoever wrote that sketch of the Japanese knew what he was talking about. There is no doubt in my mind that the Japanese are the most artistic nation on earth. One does not have to live in Japan very long to note this.
The point about the inscrutable Oriental is also on the mark. Regarding the amazing Japanese ability to pretend, I made the point in a rather graphic way. I would tell someone that the Japanese are so good at creating false walls around themselves and action which takes place next to them that if a couple started making love in the same room in which some Japanese guy was sitting, he would keep a straight face and pretend nothing was happening. Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but not by much.
Of course, once a Japanese guy is drunk, everything changes.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 26, 2019 10:52:53 GMT -8
I checked on wikipedia, and they have brief articles on 2 different cliffs. Suicide Cliff is presumably the first, and Banzai Cliff the second. Some of those who jumped off Banzai Cliff survived (it isn't as high, and they landed in the water) and were rescued by the Navy ships.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 26, 2019 19:40:14 GMT -8
The were certainly drunk on racialist theories. I wonder if Darwinism was a root cause of this. I took a little side trip this afternoon and watched an episode of World War II in HD Colour. Here’s the first episode: They have this series on Netflix. I watched the episode, The Island War. I think you can watch it online here. It’s a pretty good summation. But it’s also a good example of why you need more than one source for your history. At one point they say the Mariana Turkey Shoot was the result of Spruance going out and chasing the Japanese. Maybe that’s the story. But the book I’m reading (and I’m pretty sure this is accurate) is that Spruance stayed put and let the Japs come to him. Then the Turkey Shoot. Afterward he did indeed go after the Combined Fleet. Another point was they said that Mitscher turned on all the lights for the pilots because he was getting messages that they were in trouble. The book I’m reading said he had this planned. And that makes more sense because it wasn’t news that these planes were flying at the edge of their range and at night. Makes you wonder what else some of the videos get wrong. Part of this can be forgiven from trying to condense things. But these were major points and presented entirely inaccurately. It’s also a muddle between the book and this video in regards to how it went down with Roosevelt authorizing the Southern push into the Philippines by MacArthur. I’m not even going to try do detangle what I’ve seen and read. But it would appear that both sides (island hopping and “I shall return”) got their way because there were resources to do both. I don’t want to be a second guesser just for the sake of doing so. But it sure looks as if it was a very bad idea to invade the Philippines. The Japs could have been starved out. Or just bypassed like Truk was bypassed. Jap troops in the Philippines wouldn’t have changed the calculus for Japan when the atomic bombs started falling. I suspect thousands of people (Americans and Filipinos) died for the glorification of MacArthur’s ego.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 26, 2019 20:56:33 GMT -8
Spruance definitely waited for the Japanese to attack. He didn't chase them until the attacks had been shot down. As for Mitscher and the lights, no doubt he was ready to do so, but I can also imagine that he was in fact receiving desperate calls from pilots on the way back.
I would say that your interpretation -- Nimitz and MacArthur were both allowed to launch their planned attacks -- owed a lot to abundant American resources. And it was politically convenient as well.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 27, 2019 8:49:06 GMT -8
I sense there’s a much larger and more complicated story there than can be summed up on some History-Channel type of production. In the book, Guam has just been declared “secure” even though it had become routine to capture or kill about 100 Japanese soldiers per day. This article notes that there were credible reports of Japanese soldiers staying hidden on Guam until at least 1972 as was the case of Shoichi Yokoi “who was found hiding in Guam’s jungles in 1972.” The Japs were extremely adept at hiding. There were thousands of soldiers remaining after Guam was declared “secure.” They made a nearly hand-to-hand sweep (as police do of a crime scene) a across the section of the island where they new vast sums of Japanese soldiers still existed. I don’t quite understand the logistics of it, but the Jap commander noticed that the searchers always were looking down so he had his men hide on the exposed edge of cliffs. And those who couldn’t fit on the cliffs hid up in the trees. The sweep concluded without finding a single soldier. There’s a horrifying section in the Battle of Tinian (which otherwise went fairly smoothly) about the Colorado and Norman Scott who were surprised by hidden Jap shore batteries on July 24, 1944 during their stint at shelling. The Colorado got pummeled. The Norman Scott less so. But they didn’t actually sink her. The Colorado continue to support the invading troops until August 3. But the cleanup required of the ship went into some gruesome detail in the book. Later, in the battle at Leyte Gulf, she was hit by two kamikazes which caused moderate damage.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 27, 2019 9:35:41 GMT -8
The Colorado was a postwar battleship, sister to Maryland and West Virginia. Norman Scott would have been a destroyer (it was named after the admiral who won the Battle of Cape Esperance, killed a couple of months later at the confusing First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal). If the Japanese had shot at it instead, they would probably have sunk it. But they went after the larger target, and were probably lucky to do so much damage with 6-inch shells.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 28, 2019 9:44:31 GMT -8
Here’s a grand picture of the USS Colorado. We’re entering the nuclear stage of the book. Halsey has the fleet and is trying to sink what remains of the Japanese Navy which is mostly at anchorage. They had missed getting the Nagato, Yamamoto’s flagship during the Pearl Harbor attack, because of “an aircraft arming plan that did not allow use of armor-piercing bombs.” But there are relatively few targets left. And, at one point because of the availability of so many ships, both Halsey and Spruance had their own fleet. The British Navy, fresh from victory in the European theater, joined in as well. I think we’ve all read detailed accounts of the making of the bomb and/or its delivery. The book is a short summary regarding this aspect. But there is a good section explaining the desire by the Allies of “unconditional surrender.” The first bomb would be a uranium bomb if only because the mechanism for setting it off was simpler. But subsequent bombs would mostly be plutonium bombs because plutonium was available in quantity from the Hanford reactors. The triggering mechanism was more complicated, but they had figured that out eventually. And although there was a superficial gloss put on the targets that they were military targets, the author writes: It’s interesting in that it seems unlikely that Truman specifically authorized the mission. Instead, he simply was no impediment to the processes that were underway. It was the idea of the higher-ups on the committee overseeing and in control of the Manhattan Project (I can’t find his name) to use two bombs as quickly as possible. One bomb would leave the Japs wondering if that was just a one-time thing. Two bombs in quick succession would leave them to believe we had a whole stockpile of them.
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