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Post by artraveler on Sept 3, 2019 9:06:51 GMT -8
Gentleman Jack
Regardless of how you feel about homosexuality the life and times of Anne Lister are interesting. Anne Lister kept a diary on a daily basis from the time she was 16. Over the years she recorded everything in her life, what happened, who it happened to, and how it felt. Anne is born in 1791. Her father, Captain Lister commanded English troops in Boston in 1775. To a historian, personal journals and diaries are a wonderful material to understand an event or time period.
Anne’s journals are detailed covering her life, loves, sexual encounters seductions and disappointments. She is wealthy enough to live as she pleases, and she pleases to be extravert and aggressive. Qualities that in a man at the same time, early 19th century, people would find admirable.
The HBO series covers only a small part of Ann’s life the 1830s when she courted Anne Walker. The two shared a symbolic marriage at Holy Trinity Church in York that lasted until Ann’s death in 1841. The series suggests that one reason for Lister courting Anne Walker is her wealth. It is true that after their wedding and Anne Walker moving in with Lister the improvements in Shibden Hall were accelerated and Lister’s investments in the growing industrial revolution were better funded.
The series is unfortunately promoted as a justification for homosexual relationships, but in reality, there is almost nothing salacious. A couple of brief nude shots, breasts, and Anne and her various paramours in bed, fully clothed and kissing. There is a lot of lesbian kissing, but the sex is left to the viewers imagination. In this day every opportunity to make this series XXX is actually avoided. To a viewer, the fact that Anne Lister was a lesbian is downplayed. Something that will not go over well in the LGBTXYZQRSTYEMOP, community. It is not in your face and treats Anne and her lovers as real people and not “icons of the struggle. “
The series stars Suranne Jones as Anne Lister. She is well known in English television. Sophie Rundle as Ann Walker and Gemma Whelan as Anne’s sister Marian. Fans of shows like Downton Abby, Game of Thrones and other time period drams will find familiar ground with Gentleman Jack. The costuming and settings are excellent.
The series gives some insights to what would become Victorian morality. Anne dresses in clothes that are masculine and in her upper crust social circle there is no doubt about her sexual orientation she is accepted at the highest levels of society. She is even invited to the Queen of Denmark’s birthday party.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 3, 2019 9:41:59 GMT -8
Victorian England was to some extent a reaction to the excesses of Georgian England. I suspect this is an example of what they were reacting to.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 3, 2019 10:40:52 GMT -8
Perhaps that explains some of the open perversion today. Unfortunately, it has gone beyond toleration to forced approval, which would make a Victorian reaction much more difficult. There are a lot of factors that do this. On the other hand, I suspect a lot of people felt the same way (whether pessimistically or optimistically) during Georgian times.
But I understand what you mean about the popularity of perversion. There was the Hellfire Club, there was the standard of upper-class men having mistresses ("You will die either of the pox or on the gallows." "That depends on whether I embrace Your Lordship's mistress or Your Lordship's principles."), and the ubiquity of gaming (which did at least bequeath us the sandwich). And all of that was in the 18th Century, the age of Jonathan Wilde -- the Thieftaker General and criminal mastermind who bequeathed us the term "double cross".
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Post by artraveler on Sept 3, 2019 11:15:12 GMT -8
Perhaps that explains some of the open perversion today. I wonder, does the era of Anne Lister and even the Victorians have anything to do with the wild and silly perversions we see today? I think it is necessary to examine the totally different lifestyles of homosexual behaviors. When you consider the culture of Anne Lister and Oscar Wilde as compared to modern "gay pride" types there is a definite difference. Although, Lister and Wilde lived their lives openly and notoriously neither assumed the modern day attitude of "in your face" aggressiveness. I would contend that our modern homosexual culture is more perverse than that of Lister and Wilde. Lister remained a staunch defender of the English class system and a member in good standing with the Church of England. Something the gays today couldn't, and would not do. Wilde, of course, was much more flamboyant and ended up in jail for gross indecency, but that was well into the Victorian age some 50 years after Lister died. |
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Post by timothylane on Sept 3, 2019 11:24:51 GMT -8
Wilde was also married with at least one child, once had an audience with the Pope, and wrote The Picture of Dorian Gray. Although many were shocked by it, the fact remains that it was no defense of evil. For that matter, the whole point of The Importance of Being Ernest (which we read in 10th grade -- as we were about to read it, the teacher pointed out to me that it had a character named Lane) was getting married.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 3, 2019 12:49:02 GMT -8
There are little enough opportunities for people to have love and companionship in this world. Homosexuality adds another layer of complexity to an already difficult problem. I think that is at least part of the reason for the large degree of promiscuity among homosexuals. One of the predictions made when marriage was legalized for homosexuals was that they would discover how gut wrenching legal divorce can be. And, now with adoption and IV fertilization there are children added to the mix. I wonder how many are just thinking it was much simpler before.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 3, 2019 12:53:12 GMT -8
A crucial event making me hostile to the homosexual agenda came about 20 years ago in Louisville, when local homosexual bars boycotted a liquor salesman because was a GOP conservative Christian activist, so they assumed she was anti-homosexual (she hadn't said anything on the subject). It didn't matter that the husband, who was the salesman, contributed to homosexual causes. So he ended up losing his job because a large number of (homosexual) bars wouldn't consider buying from him.
After that the activists prated that they hadn't actually wanted him fired. And what effect did they think the boycott would have? Well, as leftists they may well have never thought that far. But those were the results to be expected, and they brought them about out of political bigotry.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 3, 2019 13:35:11 GMT -8
Yep, that kind of stuff comes under the heading of the tolerant left. Just letting people alone who aren't treating you badly seems to be something they refuse to understand.I think Anne Lister would just shrug her shoulders and go on with life. Remember she remained a staunch conservative and member in good standing in the church. I don't see that happening today.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 3, 2019 14:08:55 GMT -8
I will note that Gyles Brandreth (author of The Joy of Lex and other books of wordplay) has written a series of mystery novels featuring Oscar Wilde, starting with Oscar Wilde And a Death of No Importance. His argument is that Wilde could move in all social circles, which would be very convenient for a detective. And of course Wilde was a friend of Arthur Conan Doyle, which brings along other connections.
Wilde also appears in Robert Bloch's Night of the Ripper, in which a detective investigating the crimes asks Wilde about Prince Eddy's homosexual activities.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 3, 2019 18:15:39 GMT -8
And men are generally more interested in sex than women.I am not so sure that is the whole story. I won't say that my experiences are a norm, but promiscuity seems to me to be evenly divided among men and women, heterosexual or homosexual. The difference is perception. Men are, by nature, more blatant and aggressive and women are more subtle. Anne Lister is defiantly aggressive and demanding of her lovers. Male or female heterosexual or homosexual it is a lot of work to find, maintain, and keep a good relationship. |
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Post by timothylane on Sept 3, 2019 20:53:35 GMT -8
The Bizarro comic strip has a very nice cartoon today with an Oscar Wilde link.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 4, 2019 8:30:08 GMT -8
Thanks for keeping an eye on HBO for us, Artler. I wonder how much time must elapse before I can get another free trial of HBO Now. I could always try signing up with a different email address. I hate to game the system too much. A little bit…okay.
From the reviews I’ve read, there is vast praise for Suranne Jones as Anne Lister. I don’t know if the series is good because it’s a great performance and story or if it’s just a character that massages the conceit of today’s yutes. I’ll take to heart your note: “Regardless of how you feel about homosexuality the life and times of Anne Lister are interesting.” Still, if I get to this, I’m going in more than a little wary.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 4, 2019 8:39:17 GMT -8
I don’t want to get into a pseudo-discussion of the series without having seen some of it first. That would not be doing respect to Artler’s review. I think we should watch the content before having too much to say.
That said, I wonder if every age must learn that homosexuality is inherently subversive….and is meant to be. So we play at it with tolerance, thinking that it can all be tamed like a stray dog who has been let into the hearth and home. We just pet it on the head nicely and it will lose its teeth. We’re all such nice people that we shouldn’t underestimate the power of our good intentions. And how bravely we can show how hip we are by not just tolerating but glorifying man’s perversions.
And then it all blows up in our face, there is a backlash, and we have another Victorian Age (which may have been needed).
I do believe our dalliance with mainstreaming homosexuality can’t help but end badly. Still, people do sometimes love an iconoclast. But iconoclasm can lose its luster when everyone’s life is a train-wreck. A few Oscar Wildes might be charming. A whole society of them invites disaster.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 4, 2019 9:19:08 GMT -8
Manson was merely following the prior example of Hassan bin Sabah and the original Assassins (the hashish eaters or hashashin).
The Japanese sent several miniature subs against Pearl Harbor, and one of the crew was captured. He was very unhappy at surviving and thus shaming his family.
I don't recall anything about a lesbian affair among the FBI's profilers. There probably were many women in those early days anyway. But as you say, political correctness today trumps verisimilitude.
Oops. I evidently hit "reply" on the wrong item. If you can move it to be a reply to your Mindhunter posting, we'd all appreciate it.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 4, 2019 13:36:52 GMT -8
I do believe our dalliance with mainstreaming homosexuality can’t help but end badly That is one of the problems--dalliance. I guess we all know of or know some homosexuals. There is a minority among them that have come to terms with their proclivities and do not desire for the world to either condemn or make ikons of them. They just desire to be left alone to live their lives in a manner that suits their needs. These are the minority, perhaps one in ten maybe less, for whom homosexuality is not a dalliance. The other 90/99% it is an affectation, a badge of nonconformity that can and should be cast off. Unfortunately, it is not cast off. The thrill of defying cultural norms and offending family and friends provides an excuse for behaviors out of step with mainstream culture. It is these people who live live s of desperation. Afraid that they will be found wanting among a society of equally desperate people. They equate homosexuality pro and con in much the same way people church shop for programs that appeal to them. I suggest that modern homosexuality has become, like the progressive left, a form of religion with priests, holy symbols, a scripture, a heaven and hell. This is why it is difficult to persuade the adherents to change, for to become suddenly heterosexual is heresy. I think true homosexuals are few and far between and never make the cover of the NY Time Sunday Magazine. |
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 4, 2019 15:25:47 GMT -8
Take this in the friendly/competitive spirit it is meant: I might just sign up for HBO Now for one month (15.00….big deal) just to prove you wrong.  LOL. But, seriously, I wouldn’t mind seeing some of this and judging for myself. |
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Post by artraveler on Sept 4, 2019 15:41:46 GMT -8
You can add it from your Amazon Prime account. That makes the cancelling easier and more certain
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 5, 2019 10:10:03 GMT -8
Thanks. But in this case, I'm leaching off my sister-in-laws "family" account (so it's an honest leaching since I am family). But I've found no way at Amazon to allow different credit cards to make purchases on Prime. You can, obviously, for buying regular stuff from Amazon. And I hate to charge something up and have her freak out and also the bother of reimbursing her.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 5, 2019 14:30:51 GMT -8
I’m 23 minutes into the first episode.
A couple mistakes:
1) Not all that much is happening (fair enough…it’s early), but the producers make what I consider the mistake of over-statement. The music is big. The camerawork is big. And they show this ersatz woman strolling around with such high-stepping vigor. But none of this fits anything we’ve seen her do or accomplish. Its just all cinematic attitude. They’re trying desperately to build this character up without actually having allowed her to do anything yet.
2) Someone does note in the opening that the Listers are odd. Whether Anne Lister believes herself to be a woman trapped in a man’s body or not, her costume is atrocious and more than a little odd. That hat is ridiculous. And I know we’re gender-bending here. But the black curls on the top of her head add to the ridiculousness.
I’m not saying I’m not going to like this. But they’re trying way too hard so far on looks rather than substance. They need to step up the plot and not try to substitute cinematic razzmatazz for a good story and characters.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 5, 2019 15:10:39 GMT -8
I like the way she handles the renters. Anyone who has ever had renters will understand that human nature is inherently foul.
I like the guy (the only character introduced thus far who doesn't look like he's self-consciously acting in a period piece) is the guy who gave the toy soldier to the injured child.
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LOL.