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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 9, 2019 13:44:33 GMT -8
I am still reading Durant's "The Age of Faith" which covers the period from around the fall of the Roman Empire in the West until AD 1300-1400. Durant gives a good portion of the book to the origins and spread of Islam and how it effected the West.
Recently, while thinking about our history, it hit me that one of the reasons the West developed as it did was that throughout history, the Church acted as a counter-weight to the overarching power of the State. Of course, it was sometimes, more and sometimes less successful at this function, but I believe it was almost unique to Western Europe.
Since, latest, the time of Justinian, the Eastern Orthodox Church has been basically a tool of the State. It still continues this tradition in Russia.
The State and the "Church/Mosque" were united in Islam so there was no counter-weight to the one or the other. Both united into a uni-polar power.
While Buddhism could have significant influence on certain rulers, I do not recall it having anything like the power of the Church vis-a-vis the secular power of the State. One cannot excommunicate a Buddhist ruler.
Japanese Shito was basically a tool of the State and was used to prop the Emperor and Imperial Japan.
I am no expert on Hinduism but I cannot recall ever having read anywhere that it acted in a similar fashion to Christianity i.e. as a check on State power.
We have been lucky in the West, yet would appear to be throwing it all away.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 9, 2019 14:10:00 GMT -8
This dates back to at least the time of King David, as when the prophet Nathan confronted him over the little affair of Bathsheba (and David's arranged death of her husband, Uriah the Hittite). Elijah did the same thing to Ahab over his judicial murder of Naboth so that he could seize his vineyard. Ahab was much less godly, but Elijah still survived the experience. Jezebel was a larger threat to him, since she had no interest in any form of Judaism, and as a Tyrian couldn't understand why Naboth insisted on keeping his family property.
It should be noted that there were clergy separate from the secular authorities also in Greece and Rome, even when the Emperor held the title of Pontifex Maximus. If nothing else, the Sibyls and the Vestal Virgins were separate and had some influence.
A key element in this was that until the time of Constantine, Christianity never held and never expected to hold secular power. It was always intended to be separate -- "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's."
This is why I consider Nathan's confrontation of David an important step in the rise of Western civilization.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 9, 2019 14:35:31 GMT -8
True but in Nathan's case, he was calling out David for a particular sin. In the case of the Church in the West, I am talking about the development of an institution which didn't only have power or exert influence when a monarch sinned. The Church was seen to have its own area of religious power and this bled into the secular. The Church fought long and hard for the exclusive right to try those who were employed by it. The popes help break the power of the Hohenstaufen and splinter the Holy Roman Empire. The Church had interests spread across society in land, industry and law. It did not only touch people through religion.
Sometimes it acted in less than saintly ways to protect its rights and position. Regardless, I see it as part of that separation of powers which means much more than just the dispersal of governmental power between the legislative, judicial and executive.
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Post by artraveler on Sept 9, 2019 21:03:59 GMT -8
Don't forget Thomas Becket he went from the zenith of secular power to the top of English religious power and got a martyrdom and sainthood for it. From the early renaissance until the reformation the power of the church was primarily moral and ethical. The late renaissance popes, Alexander 6th , Julius 2nd were very much involved in secular matters and the threat of excommunication could make or break monarchs. A papal bull was considered to have the force of law.
It is only with the reformation and the development of the moveable type printing press that subversive ideas spread throughout Europe. The idea that individuals could, and should read scripture for themselves and grasp meaning in their own way is very revolutionary in Christianity. Even today many Catholics will say "I do not read scripture, that is the priests job".
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Post by timothylane on Sept 10, 2019 6:03:04 GMT -8
King John was excommunicated for several years, during which church services weren't performed in England. He eventually got out of his predicament (I don't recall what caused it, given that Henry II hadn't been excommunicated for his role in the death of that "turbulent priest", his former friend and chancellor Becket) by declaring England a fief of the Church. This would later be convenient for Henry III, who had a long history of violating the terms of the Magna Carta and then getting the Church to absolve him.
The Church was definitely hostile to vernacular Bibles. Wyclif got in a lot of hot water over his, and the author of one such English Bible was executed for it in early Tudor times. One might recall that the benefit of clergy involved being able to read a Bible verse -- in Latin, of course.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 14, 2019 17:37:36 GMT -8
The idea of right and wrong, of constraints on one’s will, is surely deeply embedded in the Judeo-Christian moral system. Some don’t like “Judeo” and “Christian” mixed together like that. And they may even have a point. But when contrasted with Islam, Nazism, or various other extremely foreign ways, those two can be like two peas in a pod. Why was Hitler wrong? Since 1970 (according to this data), there have been 45,789,558 reported abortions in America. There were at least 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust. So what? Who cares? Isn’t the Triumph of the Will what it’s all about? Who are you or I to put restraints on others, to say what is right and wrong? I mentioned to someone today who I know is cheating on another man’s wife: “How does this work? Where is the husband while all this is going on? What about the two young children of the mother?” I was told I was being “judgmental.” So who am I to say what is right and wrong? Dennis Prager is of the opinion that the Torah must be fairly truthful because of what it doesn’t leave out. The exchange with Nathan is tremendous. David was, to some extent, Bill Clinton of 1000 B.C. He may have been a charismatic and useful leader but he had deep personal failings. But then everyone lies about sex….or justifies it in substantially phony ways. The words “should not” are not of Judeo-Christian origin. But I do believe it is the only system that has universalized that concept beyond strict and limited tribal definitions. (What is good for my tribe is alway “right” just like wherever I want to stick my pecker is always “right.”) |
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Post by timothylane on Sept 14, 2019 18:51:42 GMT -8
This sort of logic has led to interesting results, especially in colleges. Someone brought up the Spanish Civil War and found many students liking Franco, who after all was rebelling against authority. I suspect the same would be true of the Confederacy were it not for the issue of racial chattel slavery.
It can also lead to interesting reactions to the Holocaust, to the extent that modern students are really even aware of it. After all, the Nazis may have had their reasons for trying to eradicate world Jewry. And indeed, if you read Dr. Gilbert's Nuremberg interviews with Julius Streicher, you'll find that they did. Bad reasons, but who are we to say that Streicher (oddly enough. an expert of sorts with a large collection of Judaica -- including works that survive because of his copies) was wrong? That's awfully judgmental.
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Post by kungfuzu on Sept 14, 2019 19:39:50 GMT -8
He needs to be smacked, at least as much for the dishonest "judgemental" remark as for the actual cheating. Such lazy dishonesty disturbs my Wah.
I long for the days of the dishonest scoundrel who did not try to pretend or cover his actions with pious lies.
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Post by timothylane on Sept 14, 2019 19:53:29 GMT -8
What makes "judgmental" even more dishonest is that those using it are usually extremely judgmental about a lot of things -- how people defend themselves, what cars they drive, what light bulbs they use, what they eat, how much water their toilets flush, what temperatures they set their thermostats to, what words they use in a vast array of situations . . . They're much more judgmental than we are. But while they love to dish out criticism, they can't abide receiving it. So they counterattack by attacking critics as judgmental.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Sept 14, 2019 20:08:11 GMT -8
Great points, Timothy.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 26, 2019 8:48:43 GMT -8
I hope everyone had a nice Christmas. If you didn’t, that’s okay too. Mine was nothing spectacular. Speaking of hope, I got a message from my brother yesterday that I ought to watch the 1967 Bob Hope Christmas Special if I wanted a bit of the Christmas Spirit. They also have a bunch of these on Amazon Prime video. I watched half of the one from 1964 (with Tuesday Weld) and one from 1967 (with the smokin’ hot Joey Heatherton).  The dance she did would have given those soldiers whiplash. But the 1967 version on Amazon Prime seems to at least be a different cut from the one on YouTube. The YouTube video (which I haven’t watched yet in full) features Raquel Welch. That would be double whiplash. In the 1967 version on Amazon Prime, it included Delores Hope singing a Christmas song. And she is very good. Hope is, of course, hilarious and certainly not always politically correct. I think it was in Libya when he made a crack about everyone running around in a bed sheet. This version also featured Miss World 1966, Reita Faria. who was from India.
She is exotically beautiful and fully game for doing the shtick, including being sung to by a soldier from the audience who truly could not hold a tune. At the end of the number, the soldier gives Miss World a quick peck on the cheek. She’ll have none of that and takes the soldier in her arms and kisses him full on the lips. In the YouTube video they feature Miss World, Madeleine Bell who is a knockout. I assume the tour marked as 1967 on Amazon Prime must actually be the 1966 tour. Or one earlier in the year in '67. We do have two different Miss Worlds here and it would be difficult to choose between them.
Some of the footage of coming and going is interesting. It’s apparent that Hope was flying into some hostile regions. Or regions that had been hot recently. There are some great shots of his transport plane being given an escort by three or more fighters. Given the rough surroundings, the hardships, and the very real risk, one can assume these performers were a large cut above the narcissistic virtue-signaling assholes so common today in the entertainment industry. You’ve got to hand it to Hope and his troupe. And they really did put on a good show. One of my favorite Phyllis Diller jokes was about her hair. Bob asked her “What do you call that hairstyle?” She answers, “A direct hit.” |
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Post by kungfuzu on Dec 26, 2019 10:50:53 GMT -8
I remember watching the Bob Hope Christmas Specials as a kid. In those days, there were a lot of Christmas Specials on TV. Andy Williams comes to mind. I enjoyed them a lot. I don't know what they have on these days.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 26, 2019 11:08:17 GMT -8
I seem to recall that Andy Williams had a lot of wonderful talented brothers to help him along:
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 26, 2019 11:16:08 GMT -8
Andy, Dick, Bob, and Don sing Winter Wonderland.
The singing is terrific. I'm not sure about those all-green uniforms though. But the candy-colored sweaters were superb for the previous song. Oh well. What do I know about stage management? A rose by any other name, etc. Can you tell they are brothers?
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 26, 2019 11:17:46 GMT -8
If you don't like green, there is the red version:
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Post by timothylane on Dec 26, 2019 11:20:47 GMT -8
What were they, quadruplets? I think the second from the left was Andy Williams, but I'm not sure. Nor does it help all wearing the same outfits. The song itself isn't one I recall. For that matter, many of the songs I do remember from my youth have largely disappeared -- even the old collections don't seem to have them.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 26, 2019 11:23:39 GMT -8
Back to the pull-taffy sweaters. This time (eventually) joined by a sister (Janie, the youngest Williams brother – starts at about 5:30):
I don't know that you can tell if someone can sing well by the tone of their voice. But near the end of this video, there is some back-and-forth between the brothers. You can tell (it seems) there are most harmonious tones in those voices even when just talking.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 26, 2019 11:25:04 GMT -8
I’m pretty sure you’re right. As one commenter noted:
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Post by Brad Nelson on Dec 26, 2019 11:37:58 GMT -8
This is definitely not my style of music. But Andy had a couple of nephews (twins) who made it to #42 with "Can't Cry Hard Enough." Out of respect for their uncle, I'll make no further comment other than saying that I am sopping up the blood that is running out of my ears.
They also made it to #92 with "What's Your Name."
Much more palatable.
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Post by kungfuzu on Dec 26, 2019 14:22:19 GMT -8
Here is a brief piece which reminds us how Christian knights turned back the Turk and other Muslims over history. Of course, it is more complicated than the piece can explain, but it is a good reminder of the never-ending war Islam wages on the Christian West. Jan SobieskiThen as now, the pigs in France undermined the Christian West. The French Crown allied itself with the Ottoman Empire against the Holy Roman Empire. |
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