kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 22, 2020 23:40:13 GMT -8
Durant covers this and much more in his books, "The Reformation" and "The Renaissance."
The reason so many Jews later ended up in Poland is because they were invited there by at least one ruler who treated them very favorably. They stayed in Poland for several hundred years in relatively good shape.
Unfortunately for Polish Jews, Poland disappeared when Prussia, the Habsburgs and Imperial Russia split it between themselves. Most of the Polish Jews ended up in Russia, which up to that time, did not have a large number of Jews and was not of a mind to treat them very well.
Not only Alexander VI treated them pretty well. I believe a couple of the Medici popes treated them well and perhaps a few others.
It is an interesting fact that wherever they were, Jews were generally under the protection of the king of prince of the place they lived. This gave them both some protection and exposure. Protection from the mob and exposure to the prince.
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Post by timothylane on Feb 23, 2020 7:16:44 GMT -8
There was also a large Jewish community in Thessaloniki until Hitler showed up in 1941. They were a major part of the city's population. One thing that helped the Jews around this time was the opening of a surprise refuge -- Franco's Spain. Apparently there were a few important Jewish financiers who persuaded him to accept Jews back. (The Catholic leadership generally hasn't been particularly anti-Semitic. During the Middle Ages they pointed out the errors of, e.g., the blood libel.)
Meanwhile, German nuclear physics, of great importance in trying to develop atomic bombs, suffered heavily from the departure of so many Jews. (This didn't help other fields, either. I. G. Farben lost a lot of its top scientists. Fritz Haber, who certainly had excellent credentials as both a patriot and a chemist, was one of the scientists who fled Germany, though he was pretty much retired at this point.)
The large Jewish population in southern Poland and western Ukraine may have owed a good bit to the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism. Arthur Koestler thought that was the main source for them, though I gather this is considered dubious. But they did convert; apparently they figured that converting either to Christianity or Islam would effectively require taking sides in the struggles between the Byzantines and their Arab and Seljuk Turk antagonists.
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Post by artraveler on Feb 23, 2020 8:56:06 GMT -8
In 1897 Theodore Herzl called together the World Zionist Conference and basically said, "We have been kicked out of some of the worst countries in the world and persecuted in some of the best. It's time we had our own country where every Jew is strong, independent and free. It's time to go home".
Herzl thought it would happen in the 20th century. He never imagined the tremendous cost. The, modern Israeli can stand in any spot in Israel, Judea, and Sumeria and view his history from Moses to Bebi. There may not always be agreement on why Jews belong there, but there is agreement that we belong to Israel.
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Brad Nelson
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Post by Brad Nelson on Feb 23, 2020 9:31:04 GMT -8
Succinctly stated. True-to-realty with little doubt.
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Post by timothylane on Feb 23, 2020 9:36:23 GMT -8
I find myself wondering whether the Jews of Israel would have gone for their own state if they'd realized that the local Arabs would never accept that, resulting in an eternal war varying from moderately warm to very hot, and sometimes against the whole neighborhood.
But what else could they have done? Arabs in that vicinity had repeatedly attacked them -- Hebron in 1929, Damascus in the next decade, and the late 30s rising. Many had supported the Nazis hoping to use them to render the area Judenrein. After the Holocaust, they had nowhere to go but America with its strict quotas on Jews (and other groups) that had never been relaxed. (Considering how most of them vote, I'm not sure I regret that.)
And in Israel itself, they had two choices: their own state, or periodic attacks by the Palestinian Arabs. (The discussion here is reminding me of Leon Uris's The Haj, which I reviewed on ST.)
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Post by Brad Nelson on Feb 23, 2020 12:29:29 GMT -8
I believe it’s open season on Libertarians, but let us treat Jews with great respect.
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Post by artraveler on Feb 23, 2020 12:36:07 GMT -8
My only sympathy with the so-called Palestinians is that they have been exploited by their own people for political purposes. There is no ethnic or national group that can be defined as "Palestinians" they are Arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. If they want a state let them return to those countries and leave us the hell alone.
These people have killed, raped, and destroyed everything they touch. As an Israeli I have no reason to trust anything that say and very little that do. I may find a reason to work with them, but trust is a long way off, if ever.
Netanyahu recently announced plans to build thousands of new homes in Israel's capital. This was condemned by France, Germany, Ireland and Italy.That's funny. I can't remember Israel ever condemning these countries for building in Paris, Berlin, Dublin or Rome.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 23, 2020 12:49:18 GMT -8
OK. The root of libertarian "philosophy" is pride.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Feb 23, 2020 13:23:06 GMT -8
That is my position as well.
Europe will be in flames soon enough because of their insane policies towards Islam. Screw them. England was right to pull back from the confederation of idiots.
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Post by artraveler on Feb 23, 2020 13:46:36 GMT -8
OK. The root of libertarian "philosophy" is pride. Such as there is a Libertarian philosophy I must agree. However, Libertarians like popsicles, come in many flavors. Most draw a line somewhere and do not willingly cross it. The same may be said for conservatives. Not all conservatives are social and economic conservatives. Some are so socially liberal that other conservatives consider them anathema others are willing to spend so much of other people's money that the term conservative has little visible meaning. The one thing that unites them is the extent of how they are hated by the left and that is true for libertarians except the hatred comes at them from both sides of the political bubble.
There are conservatives that have positions Marx would find himself comfortable with, and libertarians with conservative values. It seems to me the major difference between conservatives is the extent of social control. Dogmatic conservatives insist on intense social control from womb to tomb. Dogmatic libertarians insist on no social controls. Both favor a more or less free market, but fall into dogma on how to maintain it. Real people who find general agreement in one or the other side are forced to chose. Then no one listens to them. Both sides are correct on some issues and both are horribly wrong on others. Compromise, gentlemen, compromise for our enemy never has and is growing stronger daily.
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Post by artraveler on Feb 23, 2020 13:53:17 GMT -8
That is my position as well. Brad, as the self-appointed Grand Pobah of all things Hebraic I grant you the authority to say Oy Vey on any occasion that strikes your fancy. However, it may get you talked about at a Latin Mass.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 23, 2020 13:58:53 GMT -8
Theoretically, I can't disagree with you and I have no beef with "libertarians" who don't stand on dogma. The great problem facing modern democratic states has been to find a balance between security and freedom. Too much of the one and you have tyranny. Too much of the other and you have anarchy. Life is a constant pain.
Some people say the modern political problem is finding a balance between equality and freedom, but I think that is a Red Herring. If a society starts out with equality before the law, then the problem of inequality can be tinkered with at the edges.
In practice, I have become something of a dogmatic conservative in reaction to what has actually resulted from "libertarian" policies. These generally have to do with personal irresponsibility which might be fine if society did not have to pay for the screw-ups of others, but society does pay. And it seems that the libertarian policies regarding economics and self-reliance are nothing but castles in the air, if actual legislation is any measure of their reality and effectiveness.
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Post by timothylane on Feb 23, 2020 15:48:07 GMT -8
In theory, there should be no reason why opposition to abortion is anti-libertarian, and libertarians should oppose the coercive aspects of the homosexual agenda. (Indeed, that's a good way to find out if someone who calls himself libertarian really is, or is just a libertinist masquerading as one.) In fact, in 1997 there was a Libertarian Party candidate for New Jersey Governor who ran as a pro-lifer (the GOP incumbent was Christine Todd Whitman, a social liberal, and of course the Demagogue was a leftist).
But Ayn Rand (who made "life" one of her highest values) was pro-abortion, no doubt because as an atheist she couldn't side with the religious people (especially Catholics) who opposed it. And most libertarians have followed her example.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Feb 23, 2020 20:37:17 GMT -8
This is cool. Sort of a gift-card kind of thing. Because I’m running out of adjectives and interjections, that will come in handy.
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Post by Brad Nelson on Feb 23, 2020 20:52:29 GMT -8
I think we’ve reached the part of the journey where talking about “social controls” (counter-measures) is like talking about “leak-plugging” on the Titanic. What we’re getting is minute social control from the Left. This is not something consistent with conservative doctrine. If controls are needed (and they are…plenty of them) it is to ensure that this kind of stuff doesn’t become normal. A car going down the road without brakes is going to eventually go off the side of the road and over the cliff. But I’m not in the mood for splitting hairs when we’re taking on tons of water every second. While we sit hear splitting hairs, there is an avalanche (the metaphor has changed) of kids believing they are this gender or that gender, just because. (What could be more "Libertarian" than this kind of free choice?) And the adults are playing to this insanity.
And that is just one snowflake (a rather large one, I’ll admit) in the avalanche of insanity sliding down the hill. We have a Communist who will most likely be the Democrat Party’s candidate for president. That’s like the big icicle that purportedly fell off the roof and hit Ralphie in the eye. Libertarians are not only not in the game of preserving our freedoms but they are adding to the piles (metaphor change again) of insanity. They shovel on the open borders, prostitution, gay marriage, legalized drugs, and other liberal things that are central to the Left’s Zeitgeist of dashing apart our society like a recreational sport and then wonder why their freedoms are being diminished.
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kungfuzu
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 23, 2020 21:05:52 GMT -8
I wonder where one finds these dogmatic conservatives? I do not know any and don't encounter them anywhere I go. I truly do believe this meme is nothing more than a Red Herring which gives the libertarians/left a straw man to sic their rabid follows on. (See Brad, I can mix my metaphors to. )
LOL!
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Post by Brad Nelson on Feb 24, 2020 8:33:25 GMT -8
I really wish I knew some dogmatic conservatives, Mr. Kung, the kind who would protest at a school board meeting about indoctrinating kids with stories about drag queens. Or who even demand that children learn to spell before learning about the supposed dire threat of “climate change.” But there are “dogmatic conservatives” who (if we assume “dogmatic” is a derogatory term) are as closed-minded and eternally pissed off at the world just as there are “dogmatic libertarians” who are eternally goofy and stoned in the world. And I have met some truly screwball specimens of both species. However, the worst that “dogmatic conservatives” tend to want is prayer in schools….which I think would be a great idea. Pray to “God”. It needn’t be praying to Jesus. Judaism is a wreck. Look at two prominent Jews (Sanders and Bloomberg). Similar wrecks (if not worse wrecks) can be found among pseudo-Catholics such as Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. I’m sure the list of wrecked Protestants is just as long, if not longer. But I’ve not come here to praise Caesar, but to bury him. We can bicker and argue over who killed who but it’s not going to change where we are now. There was a recent article linked from Drudge that said something like 90% of people were afraid to have an opinion (the wrong sort of opinion) because they might loose their job. Libertarians must first and foremost admit that “dogmatic conservatives” are not at the root of this. This is the Left. This is the slippery-slope that “liberalism” of all types has brought upon us. How hard does anyone think it was for the progression from “tolerate” to “demand”? People were warning about this aspect decades ago. But it was just “party on, Garth” for most. The gatekeepers (those horrible “dogmatic conservatives”) unfortunately not only went away but joined in the “tolerance” that has now led to demanded-acceptance. Someone has to say “no” to a lot of bad and intolerant ideas, even if they are dressed up as something else. And a large part of the problem is the Dr. Spock aspect that is so embedded in our thinking. The stern parent is out. The loosey-goosey good-time-rock-and-roll parent is in. You can’t say “no” to much of anything with the latter. And what Libertarianism tries to do is dress up this failure as something worthy when what they should notice is the failure of any type of “dogmatic” Vitamin N (“no”) that is so desperately needed in all aspects of our culture. No to the excesses. No to destructive impulses dressed up as “liberty” or “equality” (such as open borders). And if someone can figure out a formula whereby “tolerance” doesn’t lead to the oppression by the most wacko outliers, I’m all ears.
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Post by timothylane on Feb 24, 2020 9:23:58 GMT -8
Note that most libertarians seem not to care about the threat of people losing their jobs for mentioning unorthodox positions (i.e., conservative views of any sort) -- as long as the Behemoth has nothing to do with it. Perhaps they should get out a copy of a good history of Nazism and check out Gleichschaltung. That's what the left is doing today.
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 24, 2020 9:33:16 GMT -8
Dr. Goebbels knew his business. Do you think maybe those in charge of our education system, popular media and other major institutions are admirers of him and his methods?
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Post by Brad Nelson on Feb 24, 2020 9:42:37 GMT -8
I’m not at war with Libertarians. I would simply note that the spectrum of people short of Vitamin N is yuge and crosses all boundaries.
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