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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 18, 2022 6:44:42 GMT -8
The subject deserves its own thread. The link is to an article which gives a good basic understanding of the situation with Russia and NATO and how we got here. The writer states he is not saying that he agrees with the Russian's attitude or actions, but it is folly to ignore them and not try to understand. This is pretty much my position. It's called acknowledging reality. Not so ancient history
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Russia
Feb 18, 2022 7:25:55 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Feb 18, 2022 7:25:55 GMT -8
Good analysis of how we got to this point. I think also that Russia has a large inferiority complex brought on by condescension of the west, especially England. Putin is making noises like an ignored child whose toys are always hand-me-downs. A large part of how we got here is exactly as the author said, shame of being humiliated by the west, more Europe than America, but still there never the less.
So what is the solution? I have given this some thought over the last 30 years and my original thought still, I think has validity. Offer Russia full membership in NATO. Since the time of Peter the Great Russia has always sought to be seen as a European power. Even during the Soviet era this was the case. You say the Russians are thuggish, are they more thuggish than Turkey? More criminal that East Germany was? Less restrained than Greece? What better way to pull Russia into the western fold against China than extend NATO all the way to the Pacific?
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 21, 2022 11:50:21 GMT -8
Putin has sprung the trap and revealed his game. We have said this before, his interest is in the two Donbas republics, not the Ukraine as a whole. This move will bring the situation to a head. The Ukrainian army has been, over the last few days, increasing the tension by shelling positions in the Donbas. Local authorities have evacuated over 700,000 people living there. The shelling by the Ukrainian army is against the Minsk agreements, yet there has been no reaction by the West. Putin has now basically said to the Ukrainian government, "If you continue to attack the Donbas, we will give them more aid and possibly make an alliance with them and send in our troops to help." The Ukrainian government apparently wanted to see how far they could go in the Donbas and now they have received an answer. Dumb asses. This is like Pee Wee Herman slapping Mike Tyson and when Tyson threatens to react, Pee Wee begs for help from John L. Sullivan, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman and Larry Holmes to save his ass. Putin recognizes Donbas Republics
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 21, 2022 16:25:39 GMT -8
A translation of Putin's speech today, to the Russian people. Some very interesting points, particularly the ones regarding his broaching Russia's joining NATO with Bill Clinton. If this is true, and I believe it very well could be as it made since the fall of the USSR, then it is a clear sign that the USA has no interest in living peacefully with Russia. It has been long known that the USA wants to break up Russia into a number of different states, each which would be easier to control than a unified nation. Putin has stood in the way of this. Putin's speech to Russia
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 21, 2022 18:44:35 GMT -8
One has to question the sanity of supporting a government that has chosen this pervert for an important job regarding the disposal of nuclear waste. The further down this road America goes, the faster it will fall. Radioactive
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 21, 2022 20:49:05 GMT -8
It seems the American people are more subtle that many think. They can differentiate between countries which are important to our national interest and those which aren't. Taiwan yes, the Ukraine no
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Russia
Feb 23, 2022 7:04:59 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Feb 23, 2022 7:04:59 GMT -8
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Post by artraveler on Feb 23, 2022 10:00:46 GMT -8
George Kennen on the expansion of NATO.
"Expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations; and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking."
This is fundamentally a problem we have to thank GH Bush and Bill Clinton, although GW Bush and Obama bear some of the responsibility.
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Post by artraveler on Feb 23, 2022 18:12:21 GMT -8
This senile son of a bitch is going to get thousands of people killed!
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Russia
Feb 23, 2022 19:34:08 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Feb 23, 2022 19:34:08 GMT -8
I am afraid you may be right. Everyone is concerned that the Biden administration is showing weakness, which will temp foreign powers to take advantage of a weak USA. I believe it is worse than that. From the moment Biden took office, it has been unclear as to who is in charge. Is Biden in charge? If not, then who? Is the executive branch being run as separate fiefs, all pulling in different directions without coordination? That is more dangerous than weakness. It shows the government is in chaos and that no one is actually in charge and can make quick decisions in times of crisis. We, in the USA, are really screwed, but many countries overseas, will be in worse ship due to our government pretending it will help while leaving them twisting in the wind. The Biden administration is going a long way to destroy America's credibility in the world. The monumental fuck up in Afghanistan and now this mess in the Ukraine. Two very different scenarios, and each requiring its own special type of incompetence. It's almost like there was a plan to do this.
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 23, 2022 20:00:44 GMT -8
Yesterday, I heard that Germany had fewer than 100 operational tanks in their Bundeswehr. 100 tanks! This from the country which turned out Guderian and Rommel. Which produces, perhaps, the best main battle tank today, the Leopard 2A7.
Does anyone recall when Hillary and the Obamanation decided to get rid of Gaddafi? They used NATO as one of their tools to do this. Once the show started, NATO ran out of ordinance in three days of starting the attack in Libya. They had no more bombs to drop.
NATO can, in theory, mobilize only 2.5 combat divisions for battle. But this number is very likely much too high as NATO doesn't have enough trucks and other vehicles to move that number of troops en masse.
What the hell did they think Russia was going to do? How much more sensible to come out and just admit that the Ukraine will not become a part of NATO?
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Post by artraveler on Feb 23, 2022 21:28:10 GMT -8
Large parts of NATO is very much a paper tiger. The initial news reports, which are almost always wrong, have the Russians as the enemy. The true enemy is in our White House.
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 24, 2022 10:36:58 GMT -8
Once again, the old saying, "the first casualty of war is the truth" is proven to be the case. We are hearing various versions of what is happening. Despite reading about attacks on Kiev, I just watched a live Reuters feed of downtown Kiev which showed things were quiet. All city lights were lit and a few cars were driving through the streets. The video gives a good idea of what NATO finds important. Does anyone believe this helps to insure peace? Diversity How will Europe handle this? Ukrainian refugees
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 25, 2022 6:08:00 GMT -8
The link is to a good review of a recent book on the breakup of the Soviet Union. Longish, but worth a read. Gorbachev didn't know what he was doing A couple of interesting quotes from the article.
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Russia
Feb 26, 2022 10:58:26 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Feb 26, 2022 10:58:26 GMT -8
This tends to confirm my observations of how this war is being handled. The Russians have avoided destroying all basic infrastructure such as electricity, water, communications, etc. These would normally be among the first targets of a military operation determined to conquer a country. Russia is going relatively easy
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Post by kungfuzu on Feb 26, 2022 11:11:17 GMT -8
This is what Russia has been demanding for years. Might have saved a lot of lives if NATO had taken this position earlier. Again, criminals and fools rule the world. They are too often one and the same in the West. Putin may be a criminal, but he is no fool. And we have Joe Biden and his coterie of clowns running our government. Is this the result of decades of affirmative action? 10th raters floating to the top like scum on a pond. USA willing to accept Ukrainian neutrality
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Russia
Feb 26, 2022 12:41:18 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Feb 26, 2022 12:41:18 GMT -8
I had heard of this before, but only saw this piece today. It is very conceivable that such talk gave Putin the excuse he needed to invade. How stupid does Zelensky have to be to go around Munich saying the Ukraine is going to develop nuclear weapons. It's like sending a post-it to Putin-"Note to self: speed up invasion of the Ukraine." Nuclear Ukraine
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Russia
Feb 26, 2022 12:54:43 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Feb 26, 2022 12:54:43 GMT -8
I wonder if this is disinformation. Ukraine doesn't seem to be the pushover Putin thought it would be. KIA and MIA figures are subject to doubt but it does seem that the Russians are taking a large number of KIA. The Ukraine ministry of defense is saying 3000 a figure I estimate is overblown by 3 while Ukraine is saying only 200 KIA a figure under estimated by 3 at least. We may not know the actual cost for months, if ever.
Estimates were they would take Kvie by today that hasn't happened and there is growing unrest in Moscow. I wonder how much more it will be when the body bags show up?
On another note this has given western analysts the opportunity to evaluate Russian weapons and tactics in a real world environment and they appear to be not much different from the weapons and tactics of the Soviets. Russia is a paper tiger with nuclear weapons.
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Russia
Feb 26, 2022 13:17:22 GMT -8
Post by artraveler on Feb 26, 2022 13:17:22 GMT -8
Does any believe that if the situation were reversed. Would Biden show even half the guts the Ukraine president has?
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Russia
Feb 26, 2022 13:39:43 GMT -8
Post by kungfuzu on Feb 26, 2022 13:39:43 GMT -8
I don't think Biden would be cognizant of what was happening. All they would have to do is promise him an ice-cream cone if he says what they tell him to do.
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